# episodes

urn: urn:srf:video:011aaf4b-a0ca-4f0d-a598-591708957e97
title: BVG-Reform: Gerecht oder unsozial?
created_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:38
updated_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:38
mediacomposition:
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Handelt es sich bei der BVG-Reform um einen ausgewogenen Kompromiss oder um eine Mogelpackung?\r\n\r\nWer gewinnt und wer verliert?\r\nInsbesondere die Frauen w\u00fcrden von der Reform der zweiten S\u00e4ule profitieren, argumentieren die Bef\u00fcrworterinnen und Bef\u00fcrworter. Schliesslich zielten wesentliche Elemente der Reform auf Teilzeitarbeitende, Mehrfachangestellte und Menschen mit geringem Einkommen. Die Gegenseite warnt hingegen davor, dass mit der Reform die Renten f\u00fcr viele \u2013 vor allem \u00e4ltere \u2013 Personen sinken w\u00fcrden. Welche Auswirkungen hat die Reform auf die verschiedenen Gesellschaftsgruppen?\r\n\r\nZu diesen Fragen begr\u00fcsst Sandro Brotz am 28. 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subtitles:
  WEBVTT

  1
  00:00:01.106 --> 00:00:01.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">.</font>

  2
  00:00:02.170 --> 00:00:05.168 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jetzt kommt schon bald der nächste</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Härtetest in der Rentenfrage.</font>

  3
  00:00:05.811 --> 00:00:09.567 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was bringt die Reform der zweiten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Säule, was bringt sie den Frauen?</font>

  4
  00:00:10.209 --> 00:00:11.848 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darüber müssen wir reden.</font>

  5
  00:00:15.053 --> 00:00:19.608 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit Live-Untertiteln von SWISS TXT</font>

  6
  00:00:24.931 --> 00:00:26.967 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute in der "Arena":</font>

  7
  00:00:27.609 --> 00:00:30.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">Samira Marti, Co-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Fraktionspräsidentin SP, sie sagt:</font>

  8
  00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Die BVG-Reform ist nicht nur</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unnötig, sondern auch schädlich."</font>

  9
  00:00:35.610 --> 00:00:37.928 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Sie führt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Mehrkosten für die Versicherten</font>

  10
  00:00:38.570 --> 00:00:40.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">und gleichzeitig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu sinkenden Renten."</font>

  11
  00:00:41.209 --> 00:00:43.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kathrin Bertschy, Nationalrätin GLP,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagt:</font>

  12
  00:00:44.489 --> 00:00:46.928 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Diese Reform ist ein Meilenstein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Frauen."</font>

  13
  00:00:47.569 --> 00:00:51.088 
  <font color="#ffffff">Insbesondere Teilzeitarbeitnehmende</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Menschen mit geringen Einkommen</font>

  14
  00:00:51.729 --> 00:00:53.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">können besser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">versichert werden."</font>

  15
  00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:58.088 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gabriela Medici,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Leiterin Sozialpolitik SGB, sagt:</font>

  16
  00:00:58.730 --> 00:01:02.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Die Reform führt zu tieferen Renten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und deutlich höheren Lohnabzügen."</font>

  17
  00:01:03.489 --> 00:01:06.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Dies, obwohl es den Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">finanziell sehr gut geht."</font>

  18
  00:01:07.489 --> 00:01:10.528 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicole Barandun,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Nationalrätin Die Mitte, sagt:</font>

  19
  00:01:11.170 --> 00:01:12.728 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Die längst überfällige Reform</font>

  20
  00:01:13.370 --> 00:01:14.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">trägt der steigenden Lebenserwartung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rechnung."</font>

  21
  00:01:15.610 --> 00:01:19.087 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Nur so können wir die Renten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">langfristig für alle sichern."</font>

  22
  00:01:19.729 --> 00:01:23.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die "Arena" -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">moderiert von Sandro Brotz.</font>

  23
  00:01:24.811 --> 00:01:27.568 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herzlich willkommen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">liebe Zuschauerinnen und Zuschauer.</font>

  24
  00:01:28.210 --> 00:01:29.648 
  <font color="#00ffff">Merci, herzlichen Dank.</font>

  25
  00:01:30.289 --> 00:01:34.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">Guten Abend zur letzten "Arena"</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vor dem Sommerprogramm.</font>

  26
  00:01:34.769 --> 00:01:38.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben uns ein wichtiges</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und grosses Thema vorgenommen,</font>

  27
  00:01:39.009 --> 00:01:40.888 
  <font color="#00ffff">die BVG-Reform.</font>

  28
  00:01:41.529 --> 00:01:44.008 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da steht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein harter Abstimmungskampf bevor.</font>

  29
  00:01:44.649 --> 00:01:46.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist natürlich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein Fall für die "Arena".</font>

  30
  00:01:46.770 --> 00:01:49.608 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber auch ein Fall</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für unsere Protokollantin,</font>

  31
  00:01:50.250 --> 00:01:53.926 
  <font color="#00ffff">die am Ende unserer Sendung ihre</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">eigene Zusammenfassung präsentiert.</font>

  32
  00:01:54.569 --> 00:01:58.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">Applaus für die wunderbare</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und einzigartige Patti Basler.</font>

  33
  00:02:06.571 --> 00:02:10.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bei uns im Publikum</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sitzen heute Abend u.a. Sek-Klassen</font>

  34
  00:02:11.009 --> 00:02:17.207 
  <font color="#00ffff">aus Müllheim/TG,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Ebikon/LU und Aarburg/AG.</font>

  35
  00:02:17.849 --> 00:02:20.928 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn Sie auch als Studiogast live</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dabei sein wollen,</font>

  36
  00:02:21.570 --> 00:02:25.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">können Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf unsere Internetseite gehen:</font>

  37
  00:02:25.770 --> 00:02:29.407 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vielleicht sehen wir uns schon bald</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in diesem Studio.</font>

  38
  00:02:30.049 --> 00:02:35.528 
  <font color="#00ffff">Im Prinzip sind sich alle einig.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist ein gutes Konzept:</font>

  39
  00:02:36.170 --> 00:02:38.969 
  <font color="#00ffff">das Dreisäulenkonzept</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">unserer Altersvorsorge,</font>

  40
  00:02:39.609 --> 00:02:42.612 
  <font color="#00ffff">das Volk und Stände</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">1972 beschlossen.</font>

  41
  00:02:43.250 --> 00:02:47.047 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die erste Säule, die AHV,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist die staatliche Vorsorge.</font>

  42
  00:02:47.689 --> 00:02:50.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die zweite Säule, die BVG,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die berufliche Vorsorge,</font>

  43
  00:02:50.769 --> 00:02:52.367 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Pensionskasse.</font>

  44
  00:02:53.009 --> 00:02:54.648 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die dritte Säule</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist die private Vorsorge.</font>

  45
  00:02:55.291 --> 00:02:57.008 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sind die drei Säulen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Schweizer Altersvorsorge.</font>

  46
  00:02:57.650 --> 00:02:59.168 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie immer,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn sich Zeiten ändern,</font>

  47
  00:02:59.810 --> 00:03:02.007 
  <font color="#00ffff">werden Konzepte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">an die Realität angepasst.</font>

  48
  00:03:02.649 --> 00:03:04.887 
  <font color="#00ffff">Nach der ersten Säule,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für die es vor knapp zwei Jahren</font>

  49
  00:03:05.529 --> 00:03:07.048 
  <font color="#00ffff">ein hauchdünnes Ja gab,</font>

  50
  00:03:07.689 --> 00:03:10.087 
  <font color="#00ffff">ist nun die zweite Säule</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">an der Reihe.</font>

  51
  00:03:10.728 --> 00:03:15.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir stimmen darüber ab, weil ein</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Referendum dagegen ergriffen wurde.</font>

  52
  00:03:15.770 --> 00:03:17.328 
  <font color="#00ffff">Koordiniert vom Gewerkschaftsbund.</font>

  53
  00:03:17.970 --> 00:03:22.207 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber um was geht es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei dieser BVG-Reform?</font>

  54
  00:03:22.849 --> 00:03:24.327 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bevor wir die Debatte starten,</font>

  55
  00:03:24.969 --> 00:03:27.167 
  <font color="#00ffff">bringen wir Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf den neuesten Stand.</font>

  56
  00:03:27.809 --> 00:03:30.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dann sind wir alle schon eine Art</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Vorsorgespezialist/-innen.</font>

  57
  00:03:30.769 --> 00:03:34.088 
  <font color="#00ffff">Schauen wir, wie toll</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieses Erklärvideo gemacht ist.</font>

  58
  00:03:36.050 --> 00:03:38.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zur Abstimmung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">steht am 22. September</font>

  59
  00:03:39.209 --> 00:03:41.647 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Reform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der beruflichen Vorsorge BVG:</font>

  60
  00:03:42.289 --> 00:03:45.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">Eine zentrale Änderung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">betrifft den Umwandlungssatz.</font>

  61
  00:03:45.849 --> 00:03:50.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er soll von 6,8 %</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf 6 % gesenkt werden.</font>

  62
  00:03:50.849 --> 00:03:53.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für die Berechnung der Rente im BVG</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heisst das:</font>

  63
  00:03:54.050 --> 00:03:56.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei einem Altersguthaben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von 100'000 Fr.</font>

  64
  00:03:57.569 --> 00:04:01.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">würde eine versicherte Person</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jährlich anstatt 6'800 Fr.</font>

  65
  00:04:02.449 --> 00:04:05.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">neu 6'000 Fr. Rente erhalten.</font>

  66
  00:04:06.051 --> 00:04:09.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">Um das Rentenniveau zu halten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind Rentenzuschläge vorgesehen</font>

  67
  00:04:09.730 --> 00:04:12.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">für eine Übergangsgeneration</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von 15 Jahrgängen.</font>

  68
  00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:16.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch soll es möglich sein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">fürs Alter mehr anzusparen.</font>

  69
  00:04:17.129 --> 00:04:20.887 
  <font color="#ffffff">So will die BVG-Reform die Situation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Teilzeitarbeitenden</font>

  70
  00:04:21.529 --> 00:04:24.527 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Personen mit geringem Einkommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehrheitlich Frauen, verbessern:</font>

  71
  00:04:25.169 --> 00:04:28.607 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dies durch eine Anpassung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Eintrittsschwelle:</font>

  72
  00:04:29.249 --> 00:04:33.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute ist eine Person ab einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jahreslohn von mind. 22'050 Fr.</font>

  73
  00:04:34.049 --> 00:04:35.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">im BVG versichert.</font>

  74
  00:04:36.569 --> 00:04:40.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neu würde die Schwelle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei 19'845 Fr. liegen.</font>

  75
  00:04:40.808 --> 00:04:44.527 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heisst: Neu wären mehr Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im BVG versichert.</font>

  76
  00:04:45.169 --> 00:04:47.647 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem soll</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der sog. Koordinationsabzug</font>

  77
  00:04:48.291 --> 00:04:53.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">anstatt eines fixen Betrags</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neu 20 % des AHV-Lohns betragen.</font>

  78
  00:04:54.569 --> 00:04:57.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">So wären neu 80 % des Lohns</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">versichert.</font>

  79
  00:04:58.489 --> 00:05:02.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch davon sollen v.a. Personen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit tiefen Einkommen profitieren.</font>

  80
  00:05:03.090 --> 00:05:07.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein weiteres Element</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">betrifft die Altersgutschrift,</font>

  81
  00:05:07.968 --> 00:05:11.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">also den Betrag,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Arbeitnehmer und Arbeitgeber</font>

  82
  00:05:11.769 --> 00:05:14.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">gemeinsam auf das Alterskonto</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einer Person einzahlen.</font>

  83
  00:05:15.050 --> 00:05:19.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Ziel: Für ältere Arbeitskräfte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zwischen 45 bis 65 Jahren</font>

  84
  00:05:19.649 --> 00:05:22.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">soll dieser Lohnabzug</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gesenkt werden,</font>

  85
  00:05:22.809 --> 00:05:25.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit sie im Arbeitsmarkt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bessere Chancen haben.</font>

  86
  00:05:29.051 --> 00:05:31.087 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gabriela Medici, die Gewerkschaften,</font>

  87
  00:05:31.730 --> 00:05:33.327 
  <font color="#00ffff">die das Referendum gegen die Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ergriffen haben,</font>

  88
  00:05:33.969 --> 00:05:35.447 
  <font color="#00ffff">sprechen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von einer grossen Abbauvorlage.</font>

  89
  00:05:36.089 --> 00:05:37.967 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was wird abgebaut?</font>

  90
  00:05:38.609 --> 00:05:40.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die zweite Säule, die Pensionskasse,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wird genau dort abgebaut,</font>

  91
  00:05:41.368 --> 00:05:43.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo sie wichtig ist.</font>

  92
  00:05:44.049 --> 00:05:46.007 
  <font color="#ffffff">Beim Mittelstand,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den mittleren Einkommen.</font>

  93
  00:05:46.649 --> 00:05:50.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">5'000-7'000 Fr. - dort, wo man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht nur von der AHV leben kann.</font>

  94
  00:05:51.569 --> 00:05:54.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort, wo man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine grosse Dritte Säule hat,</font>

  95
  00:05:55.089 --> 00:05:57.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo man den ganzen Mittelstand hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der eine zweite Säule braucht.</font>

  96
  00:05:58.089 --> 00:05:59.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort haben wir einen Abbau.</font>

  97
  00:06:00.569 --> 00:06:03.407 
  <font color="#00ffff">Seit wann haben die Gewerkschaften</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den Mittelstand entdeckt?</font>

  98
  00:06:04.049 --> 00:06:06.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Gewerkschaften</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind Teil der Pensionskassen,</font>

  99
  00:06:07.048 --> 00:06:08.527 
  <font color="#ffffff">seit es sie gibt.</font>

  100
  00:06:09.169 --> 00:06:11.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die gibt es schon länger</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als die AHV, also schon sehr lange.</font>

  101
  00:06:11.969 --> 00:06:13.446 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sprechen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von einer Abbau-Vorlage.</font>

  102
  00:06:14.089 --> 00:06:16.527 
  <font color="#00ffff">Kathrin Bertschy, das klingt so, als</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">würde man Ihnen den Vorwurf machen,</font>

  103
  00:06:17.168 --> 00:06:19.047 
  <font color="#00ffff">es sei eine Mogelpackung.</font>

  104
  00:06:19.689 --> 00:06:21.007 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Gegenteil,</font>

  105
  00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:24.087 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein grosser Teil des Mittelstandes</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist in Teilzeit erwerbstätig.</font>

  106
  00:06:24.730 --> 00:06:27.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Leute teilen sich das Erwerbs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">pensum und die Kinderbetreuung.</font>

  107
  00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:30.647 
  <font color="#ffffff">Beim BVG haben wir die Problematik,</font>

  108
  00:06:31.289 --> 00:06:34.607 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die zweite Säule nach wie vor</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf das Modell des einen Ernährers</font>

  109
  00:06:35.249 --> 00:06:37.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">der Nachkriegszeit ausgerichtet ist.</font>

  110
  00:06:37.808 --> 00:06:40.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wer Teilzeit arbeitet,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehrfach beschäftigt ist,</font>

  111
  00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:44.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">kleine Einkommen hat - all das gilt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Zuverdienst -</font>

  112
  00:06:45.050 --> 00:06:48.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sind sehr schlecht abgesichert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der zweiten Säule.</font>

  113
  00:06:49.168 --> 00:06:51.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das zu korrigieren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ein jahrzehntealtes Anliegen,</font>

  114
  00:06:52.049 --> 00:06:55.527 
  <font color="#ffffff">v.a. von Frauenorganisationen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass Teilzeit- und Kleineinkommen</font>

  115
  00:06:56.168 --> 00:06:57.607 
  <font color="#ffffff">besser versichert sind.</font>

  116
  00:06:58.249 --> 00:07:00.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das schafft man mit diesem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">linearen Koordinationsabzug,</font>

  117
  00:07:01.049 --> 00:07:03.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">von dem wir gehört haben - so er-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">halten all diese eine bessere Rente.</font>

  118
  00:07:04.369 --> 00:07:06.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das betrifft massgeblich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch den Mittelstand.</font>

  119
  00:07:06.688 --> 00:07:08.646 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sagt auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die zuständige Bundesrätin,</font>

  120
  00:07:09.288 --> 00:07:12.047 
  <font color="#00ffff">Elisabeth Baume-Schneider,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sie ist Mitglied der SP.</font>

  121
  00:07:12.689 --> 00:07:16.327 
  <font color="#00ffff">Samira Marti, Frau Baume-Schneider</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">formulierte es so:</font>

  122
  00:07:16.969 --> 00:07:21.687 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Gesellschaft verändert sich,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die Leute werden immer älter.</font>

  123
  00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:26.006 
  <font color="#ffff00">Dazu kommen die Schwankungen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">an den Finanzmärkten.</font>

  124
  00:07:26.648 --> 00:07:30.166 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir können die Entwicklung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht mehr langfristig abschätzen.</font>

  125
  00:07:30.809 --> 00:07:32.967 
  <font color="#ffff00">Deshalb braucht es diese Reform.</font>

  126
  00:07:33.609 --> 00:07:37.087 
  <font color="#00ffff">D.h., der Bundesrat möchte künftige</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Renten sicherer finanzieren,</font>

  127
  00:07:37.731 --> 00:07:41.246 
  <font color="#00ffff">Teilzeitbeschäftigte und Menschen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit tiefen Löhnen besser absichern.</font>

  128
  00:07:41.888 --> 00:07:43.566 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das klingt doch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach einer Win-win-Situation?</font>

  129
  00:07:45.369 --> 00:07:47.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Hauptmassnahme dieser Vorlage</font>

  130
  00:07:48.008 --> 00:07:49.607 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die Senkung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Umwandlungssatzes.</font>

  131
  00:07:50.248 --> 00:07:54.967 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das führt dazu, dass die Renten-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">garantien um 12 % gesenkt werden.</font>

  132
  00:07:55.611 --> 00:07:59.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das in einem Umfeld, in dem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Kaufkraft unter Druck steht.</font>

  133
  00:07:59.728 --> 00:08:03.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Mieten steigen, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Krankenkassenprämien explodieren.</font>

  134
  00:08:03.849 --> 00:08:05.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch Rentner/-innen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wissen nicht mehr,</font>

  135
  00:08:06.248 --> 00:08:08.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie sie die Rechnungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zahlen sollen.</font>

  136
  00:08:08.728 --> 00:08:10.247 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihre Renten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">steigen nicht mit den Preisen an.</font>

  137
  00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:13.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da sind wir schon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beim ersten Problem der Reform.</font>

  138
  00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie senkt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Rentengarantie für alle.</font>

  139
  00:08:17.328 --> 00:08:19.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie bringt aber dort,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wo es Probleme hat, keine Lösungen.</font>

  140
  00:08:19.968 --> 00:08:21.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt minimale Verbesserungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Frauen.</font>

  141
  00:08:22.088 --> 00:08:24.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber gerade für Frauen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit tiefem Lohn und solchen,</font>

  142
  00:08:25.049 --> 00:08:26.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">die das Leben lang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeit gearbeitet haben</font>

  143
  00:08:27.209 --> 00:08:30.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Löhnen von 3'500-4'500 Fr. aus-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommen müssen kurz vor der Pension,</font>

  144
  00:08:31.129 --> 00:08:32.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ü50, sage ich mal.</font>

  145
  00:08:33.209 --> 00:08:36.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für die führt die Reform wegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser minimalen Verbesserungen</font>

  146
  00:08:36.928 --> 00:08:39.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu höheren Kosten, sie müssen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">monatlich mehr Lohnabzüge zahlen,</font>

  147
  00:08:39.969 --> 00:08:43.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber zu tieferen Renten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen des Umwandlungssatzes.</font>

  148
  00:08:43.688 --> 00:08:47.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb dürfen wir das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht aus den Augen verlieren.</font>

  149
  00:08:48.009 --> 00:08:49.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir kämpfen seit Jahren,</font>

  150
  00:08:50.569 --> 00:08:52.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Frauen in diesem Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">besser abgesichert sind,</font>

  151
  00:08:53.168 --> 00:08:54.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Betreuungsarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">endlich anerkannt wird.</font>

  152
  00:08:55.529 --> 00:08:58.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wird in dieser Vorlage verpasst.</font>

  153
  00:08:58.689 --> 00:09:00.967 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat versprochen, nachdem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man das Frauenrentenalter erhöhte,</font>

  154
  00:09:01.609 --> 00:09:03.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man jetzt eine Lösung suche,</font>

  155
  00:09:03.809 --> 00:09:06.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit die Frauen im Alter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">besser abgesichert sind.</font>

  156
  00:09:06.689 --> 00:09:08.491 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist mit dieser Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht erreicht, im Gegenteil.</font>

  157
  00:09:09.128 --> 00:09:11.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">Z.B. eine Coiffeuse ab 50</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">muss mit Einbussen</font>

  158
  00:09:12.328 --> 00:09:15.087 
  <font color="#ffffff">von bis zu einem Drittel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weniger Rente ab 65 rechnen.</font>

  159
  00:09:15.728 --> 00:09:17.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Versprechen wurde gebrochen.</font>

  160
  00:09:18.168 --> 00:09:22.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor lauter kleiner Verbesserungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darf man den Blick fürs Ganze</font>

  161
  00:09:23.129 --> 00:09:24.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht verlieren.</font>

  162
  00:09:25.209 --> 00:09:27.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist eine Abbauvorlage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Leute nicht stemmen können.</font>

  163
  00:09:27.768 --> 00:09:31.126 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir versuchen heute Abend, den Blick</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">fürs grosse Ganze nie zu verlieren.</font>

  164
  00:09:31.768 --> 00:09:33.246 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist recht komplex.</font>

  165
  00:09:33.888 --> 00:09:35.567 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die vierte in der Runde heute Abend</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist Nicole Barandun.</font>

  166
  00:09:36.208 --> 00:09:37.567 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie ist zum ersten Mal</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in der Hauptrunde der "Arena",</font>

  167
  00:09:38.209 --> 00:09:39.447 
  <font color="#00ffff">herzlich willkommen.</font>

  168
  00:09:40.089 --> 00:09:41.407 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mitte-Nationalrätin</font>

  169
  00:09:42.049 --> 00:09:43.526 
  <font color="#00ffff">und Präsidentin des Gewerbeverbandes</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Stadt Zürich.</font>

  170
  00:09:44.168 --> 00:09:46.686 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie der schweizerische Gewerbe-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">verband unterstützen Sie die Reform.</font>

  171
  00:09:47.328 --> 00:09:49.286 
  <font color="#00ffff">Auch wenn Lohnabzüge in Milliarden-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">höhe bezahlt werden müssen.</font>

  172
  00:09:49.928 --> 00:09:54.006 
  <font color="#00ffff">Beim Gewerbe sind nicht alle gleich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">begeistert, wie man lesen konnte:</font>

  173
  00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:03.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">Trotzdem sagen Sie, es lohne sich -</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">warum?</font>

  174
  00:10:04.008 --> 00:10:05.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es lohnt sich wirklich.</font>

  175
  00:10:06.088 --> 00:10:08.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Gewerbe und die Wirtschaft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">stehen hinter diesem Modell,</font>

  176
  00:10:09.368 --> 00:10:11.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Sie vorhin erläutert haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den drei Säulen.</font>

  177
  00:10:11.809 --> 00:10:13.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die berufliche Vorsorge</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ganz wichtig.</font>

  178
  00:10:14.487 --> 00:10:16.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es stimmt nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Gewerbe gespalten ist.</font>

  179
  00:10:17.369 --> 00:10:20.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">Einzelne Verbände sehen das anders,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das sind Einzelstimmen.</font>

  180
  00:10:21.088 --> 00:10:24.687 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der schweizerische Gewerbeverband</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterstützt die Vorlage,</font>

  181
  00:10:25.328 --> 00:10:28.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil er weiss, dass sie für</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Arbeitnehmende wichtig ist.</font>

  182
  00:10:29.248 --> 00:10:31.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er ist bereit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Verantwortung zu gehen,</font>

  183
  00:10:31.808 --> 00:10:33.247 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Lohnbeiträge zu leisten.</font>

  184
  00:10:33.889 --> 00:10:35.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben einen Fachkräftemangel,</font>

  185
  00:10:35.969 --> 00:10:37.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir sind angewiesen auf gute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Arbeitnehmende und Frauen,</font>

  186
  00:10:38.288 --> 00:10:39.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Teilzeit arbeiten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zunehmend auch Männer,</font>

  187
  00:10:40.448 --> 00:10:42.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich die Familienarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den Frauen teilen.</font>

  188
  00:10:43.170 --> 00:10:45.406 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für sie bringt das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein grosser Fortschritt.</font>

  189
  00:10:46.048 --> 00:10:49.687 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie reden von einzelnen Verbänden:</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">z.B. Gastrosuisse, die Nein sagt</font>

  190
  00:10:50.329 --> 00:10:54.406 
  <font color="#00ffff">im Gegensatz zu HotellerieSuisse,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Ja sagt.</font>

  191
  00:10:55.048 --> 00:10:59.165 
  <font color="#00ffff">Insgesamt sagt sogar der Schwei-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zerische Pensionskassenverband ASIP,</font>

  192
  00:10:59.808 --> 00:11:03.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">der Ja sagt zu dieser Reform,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aber gleichzeitig:</font>

  193
  00:11:09.293 --> 00:11:14.206 
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Bertschy, wir stehen am Anfang</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">des Meinungsbildungsprozesses.</font>

  194
  00:11:14.848 --> 00:11:19.726 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist diese BVG-Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein Wurf oder ein Würfchen?</font>

  195
  00:11:20.368 --> 00:11:23.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist ein Meilenstein für viele,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die schlecht versichert sind.</font>

  196
  00:11:24.288 --> 00:11:26.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau für die,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die wir besser versichern müssen,</font>

  197
  00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:28.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">die heute eine schlechte Rente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben: namentlich Frauen,</font>

  198
  00:11:29.528 --> 00:11:31.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeitarbeitende, Leute mit klei-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nen Einkommen, Mehrfachbeschäftigte.</font>

  199
  00:11:32.568 --> 00:11:34.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt einen Grund,</font>

  200
  00:11:34.688 --> 00:11:36.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">wieso der Pensionskassenverband</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht begeistert ist.</font>

  201
  00:11:36.928 --> 00:11:39.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil die Gewerkschaften hohe Renten-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zuschläge ausgehandelt haben.</font>

  202
  00:11:39.968 --> 00:11:46.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deswegen die leicht zurückhaltende</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Haltung von Begeisterung:</font>

  203
  00:11:46.648 --> 00:11:48.486 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil es hohe Rentenzuschläge gibt.</font>

  204
  00:11:49.128 --> 00:11:50.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Umwandlungssatz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der angepasst wird,</font>

  205
  00:11:51.248 --> 00:11:53.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">betrifft nur 15 % der Versicherten.</font>

  206
  00:11:54.288 --> 00:11:56.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alle anderen Versicherten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind in einer Kasse</font>

  207
  00:11:57.248 --> 00:11:59.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder nehmen die Kapitalauszahlung</font>

  208
  00:11:59.648 --> 00:12:01.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">und haben diese Anpassung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die höhere Lebenserwartung</font>

  209
  00:12:02.368 --> 00:12:04.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">bereits vollzogen.</font>

  210
  00:12:04.727 --> 00:12:07.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man nimmt niemandem einen Franken</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kapital weg, im Gegenteil:</font>

  211
  00:12:08.448 --> 00:12:10.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Kapital bleibt erhalten.</font>

  212
  00:12:11.571 --> 00:12:15.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir versuchen, mehr zu sparen, damit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr Kapital vorhanden ist im Alter.</font>

  213
  00:12:15.768 --> 00:12:18.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Kapital,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das zuletzt vorhanden war,</font>

  214
  00:12:18.848 --> 00:12:25.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man auf eine längere Lebenszeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">strecken, weil wir älter werden.</font>

  215
  00:12:25.808 --> 00:12:27.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist sehr erfreulich.</font>

  216
  00:12:27.928 --> 00:12:30.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei 15 % der Versicherten wurde</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Anpassung noch nicht gemacht.</font>

  217
  00:12:31.208 --> 00:12:32.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie wird jetzt vollzogen.</font>

  218
  00:12:33.328 --> 00:12:35.966 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Gegenzug gibt es grosszügige</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rentenzuschläge, die gezielt wirken.</font>

  219
  00:12:36.609 --> 00:12:39.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wir machen die Modernisierung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der zweiten Säule dort,</font>

  220
  00:12:40.288 --> 00:12:41.766 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo sie dringend notwendig ist.</font>

  221
  00:12:42.407 --> 00:12:44.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">So versichern wir kleine Einkommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Teilzeitarbeitnehmende</font>

  222
  00:12:45.248 --> 00:12:46.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">endlich anständig.</font>

  223
  00:12:47.249 --> 00:12:48.726 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist diese Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Meilenstein.</font>

  224
  00:12:49.368 --> 00:12:51.047 
  <font color="#00ffff">Modernisierung, Meilenstein -</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Medici?</font>

  225
  00:12:51.687 --> 00:12:53.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Bertschy</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagte zwei wichtige Sachen:</font>

  226
  00:12:53.848 --> 00:12:58.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie sagte, viele</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben schon gelitten, das stimmt.</font>

  227
  00:12:58.647 --> 00:13:02.486 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Pensionskassen senkten in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den letzten zehn Jahren die Rente.</font>

  228
  00:13:03.129 --> 00:13:05.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Umwandlungssätze sanken.</font>

  229
  00:13:06.168 --> 00:13:07.647 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was heisst das konkret?</font>

  230
  00:13:07.968 --> 00:13:10.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für gleich viel Kapital</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt es weniger Rente.</font>

  231
  00:13:10.888 --> 00:13:14.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann machten sie zwei Dinge,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um das abzufedern:</font>

  232
  00:13:14.928 --> 00:13:18.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie liessen immer mehr einzahlen,</font>

  233
  00:13:19.087 --> 00:13:25.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">und gleichzeitig sind die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rentengarantien auf einem Tiefpunkt.</font>

  234
  00:13:26.088 --> 00:13:28.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was ist die Folge dieser Situation?</font>

  235
  00:13:28.848 --> 00:13:32.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Pensionskasse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geht es hervorragend.</font>

  236
  00:13:32.728 --> 00:13:35.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sagen alle, auch die "NZZ".</font>

  237
  00:13:35.728 --> 00:13:39.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Pensionskassen haben viel Geld</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">angehäuft, das ist kein Vorwurf.</font>

  238
  00:13:40.208 --> 00:13:42.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wieso haben sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Leistungen gesenkt?</font>

  239
  00:13:42.968 --> 00:13:47.406 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil sie Angst hatten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es richtig schwarz kommt.</font>

  240
  00:13:48.048 --> 00:13:49.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man Geld sparen muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Negativzinsen hat,</font>

  241
  00:13:50.527 --> 00:13:52.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">kann das brutal sein.</font>

  242
  00:13:52.647 --> 00:13:54.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Gegenteil ist passiert.</font>

  243
  00:13:54.767 --> 00:13:56.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die letzten zehn Jahre</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">liefen hervorragend.</font>

  244
  00:13:57.008 --> 00:13:59.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat Anlagegewinne gemacht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Immobilien, Aktien.</font>

  245
  00:13:59.728 --> 00:14:01.966 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und jetzt schwimmen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Pensionskassen im Geld.</font>

  246
  00:14:02.608 --> 00:14:06.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Zweite: Selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">braucht es eine bessere Absicherung</font>

  247
  00:14:07.487 --> 00:14:08.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">für Teilzeitarbeitnehmende,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unbestritten.</font>

  248
  00:14:09.567 --> 00:14:12.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wenn man es macht mit einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Abbau des Umwandlungssatzes,</font>

  249
  00:14:13.007 --> 00:14:14.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann führt eine Verknüpfung dazu,</font>

  250
  00:14:15.248 --> 00:14:17.766 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir 20-30 Jahre warten müssen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis es etwas bringt.</font>

  251
  00:14:18.408 --> 00:14:22.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sehen die Notwendigkeit nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Umwandlungssatz zu senken.</font>

  252
  00:14:23.488 --> 00:14:27.246 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei der Teilzeitbeschäftigung muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man selbstverständlich etwas machen,</font>

  253
  00:14:27.887 --> 00:14:29.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber doch nicht so.</font>

  254
  00:14:30.208 --> 00:14:31.686 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich nehme einzelne Dinge auf,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Sie gesagt haben.</font>

  255
  00:14:32.328 --> 00:14:33.766 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dass die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">im Geld schwimmen.</font>

  256
  00:14:34.408 --> 00:14:35.886 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das haben wir natürlich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auch gelesen.</font>

  257
  00:14:42.328 --> 00:14:44.325 
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweizer Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">verzeichneten 2023</font>

  258
  00:14:44.967 --> 00:14:46.406 
  <font color="#00ffff">eine durchschnittliche Nettorendite</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von 5,1 %.</font>

  259
  00:14:47.048 --> 00:14:48.526 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es diese Reform überhaupt?</font>

  260
  00:14:49.168 --> 00:14:50.766 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auf jeden Fall</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">braucht es es diese Reform.</font>

  261
  00:14:51.408 --> 00:14:52.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es braucht diese Modernisierung.</font>

  262
  00:14:53.491 --> 00:14:55.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Tatsache,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir immer länger leben</font>

  263
  00:14:56.208 --> 00:14:57.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dass auf dem Kapitalmarkt</font>

  264
  00:14:58.328 --> 00:14:59.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mehr so viel Gewinn</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erzielt werden kann,</font>

  265
  00:15:00.407 --> 00:15:02.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es einst der Fall war,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das bringt Reformbedarf mit sich.</font>

  266
  00:15:03.369 --> 00:15:09.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber über die letzten zwölf Jahre</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">waren es durchschnittlich ca. 4,6 %.</font>

  267
  00:15:09.968 --> 00:15:12.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schaut man, wie viel ausgezahlt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wird, stimmt es eben schon nicht.</font>

  268
  00:15:13.488 --> 00:15:16.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss tatsächlich im obliga-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">torischen Bereich etwas machen.</font>

  269
  00:15:17.367 --> 00:15:20.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man langfristig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Pensionskassen sichern will,</font>

  270
  00:15:20.808 --> 00:15:23.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das ein Muss.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir finden, dass das System gut ist.</font>

  271
  00:15:23.728 --> 00:15:26.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">Einerseits</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">natürlich die erste Säule,</font>

  272
  00:15:27.528 --> 00:15:30.246 
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Grundversorgung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sicherstellt, die Existenzsicherung.</font>

  273
  00:15:30.888 --> 00:15:33.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber dann spart jeder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für sich selbst.</font>

  274
  00:15:34.047 --> 00:15:36.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube, das ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gutschweizerische Sache,</font>

  275
  00:15:36.767 --> 00:15:39.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man für sich selbst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Vorsorge betreibt.</font>

  276
  00:15:39.687 --> 00:15:42.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde, das ist fast schon ein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenig Sand in die Augen gestreut.</font>

  277
  00:15:42.728 --> 00:15:45.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir könnten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der Verfassung anfangen.</font>

  278
  00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:48.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort steht, wofür die Altersversor-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gung in der Schweiz zuständig ist.</font>

  279
  00:15:49.288 --> 00:15:52.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sollen den Lebensstandard halten,</font>

  280
  00:15:53.207 --> 00:15:56.325 
  <font color="#ffffff">den man vor der Pension</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Erwerbsleben geniessen kann.</font>

  281
  00:15:56.967 --> 00:15:59.605 
  <font color="#ffffff">D.h., weniger aber doch orientiert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">am Lohneinkommen, das man hatte,</font>

  282
  00:16:00.248 --> 00:16:03.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">während man 45 Jahre lang arbeitete.</font>

  283
  00:16:03.728 --> 00:16:06.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Tatsache ist heute, dass das in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz nicht mehr erfüllt wird.</font>

  284
  00:16:07.528 --> 00:16:09.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt immer mehr Leute.</font>

  285
  00:16:09.928 --> 00:16:12.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich nehme an, viele, die zuschauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erleben das persönlich genau so.</font>

  286
  00:16:13.327 --> 00:16:15.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bekomme viele Zuschriften</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Menschen,</font>

  287
  00:16:15.887 --> 00:16:18.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">die zehn oder 15 Jahre</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vor der Pension stehen.</font>

  288
  00:16:19.248 --> 00:16:21.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann fangen sie an, sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einmal richtig mit der Pensionskasse</font>

  289
  00:16:21.771 --> 00:16:23.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">und ihrer garantierten Rente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auseinanderzusetzen.</font>

  290
  00:16:24.008 --> 00:16:26.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie müssen feststellen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht reicht.</font>

  291
  00:16:26.647 --> 00:16:28.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass es viel weniger ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als versprochen wurde.</font>

  292
  00:16:29.047 --> 00:16:30.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kommt davon,</font>

  293
  00:16:31.207 --> 00:16:33.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Pensionskassen in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den letzten Jahren abgebaut haben.</font>

  294
  00:16:34.007 --> 00:16:35.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Garantien waren schon dann ...</font>

  295
  00:16:36.087 --> 00:16:37.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch bei der über-obligatorischen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie sanken.</font>

  296
  00:16:38.247 --> 00:16:39.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man bekommt heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">300 Fr. pro Monat weniger</font>

  297
  00:16:40.448 --> 00:16:42.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man heute in Rente geht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verglichen mit vor 15 Jahren -</font>

  298
  00:16:42.928 --> 00:16:44.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">obwohl alles teurer geworden ist.</font>

  299
  00:16:45.207 --> 00:16:46.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das zeigt vielleicht</font>

  300
  00:16:47.447 --> 00:16:49.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">das grundlegende Reformproblem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der zweiten Säule auf.</font>

  301
  00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:52.445 
  <font color="#ffffff">Anlagerenditen sind jetzt natürlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">überdurchschnittlich gut.</font>

  302
  00:16:53.087 --> 00:16:55.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gabriela Medici sagte es.</font>

  303
  00:16:55.968 --> 00:16:58.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Branche selbst sagt:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">"Uns geht es hervorragend."</font>

  304
  00:16:58.848 --> 00:17:01.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der erste Satz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Studie der Zürcher Kantonalbank.</font>

  305
  00:17:01.727 --> 00:17:03.605 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich hab es vorhin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">extra noch einmal nachgeschaut.</font>

  306
  00:17:04.247 --> 00:17:06.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Es geht uns hervorragend,"</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagen sie auf Deutsch.</font>

  307
  00:17:06.807 --> 00:17:09.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kann man den Menschen draussen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht erklären,</font>

  308
  00:17:09.807 --> 00:17:11.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn sie gleichzeitig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">immer mehr Mühe haben,</font>

  309
  00:17:12.448 --> 00:17:14.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">überhaupt über die Runden zu kommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gerade Rentnerinnen und Rentner.</font>

  310
  00:17:15.488 --> 00:17:18.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im März versuchte man einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Befreiungsschlag mit der 13. AHV.</font>

  311
  00:17:18.727 --> 00:17:21.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Vorlage will eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">genau das Umgekehrte.</font>

  312
  00:17:21.646 --> 00:17:23.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals sagte man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es braucht einen Ausbau,</font>

  313
  00:17:24.327 --> 00:17:24.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals sagte man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es braucht einen Ausbau,</font>

  314
  00:17:24.967 --> 00:17:26.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Kompensation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des teurer werdenden Lebens.</font>

  315
  00:17:27.009 --> 00:17:30.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt schlägt man vor, die Rente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Schnitt wieder um 12 % zu senken.</font>

  316
  00:17:30.808 --> 00:17:34.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man will es also wieder aufheben.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kann man niemandem erklären,</font>

  317
  00:17:34.688 --> 00:17:37.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">während die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Mrd. an Gewinn machen.</font>

  318
  00:17:37.767 --> 00:17:40.085 
  <font color="#00ffff">Fairerweise muss man auch sagen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es 2021 noch anders aussah.</font>

  319
  00:17:40.727 --> 00:17:43.368 
  <font color="#00ffff">Man war im Minus,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hatte mit Covid zu tun.</font>

  320
  00:17:44.007 --> 00:17:46.085 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ihre Reaktion, Frau Barandun?</font>

  321
  00:17:46.761 --> 00:17:48.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man muss auch in Betracht ziehen,</font>

  322
  00:17:49.568 --> 00:17:51.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie man die zweite Säule finanziert.</font>

  323
  00:17:51.928 --> 00:17:53.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jeder Arbeitnehmer,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jede Arbeitnehmerin zahlt ein.</font>

  324
  00:17:54.407 --> 00:17:57.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Arbeitgeber zahlt denselben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Betrag oder sogar mehr drauf.</font>

  325
  00:17:58.007 --> 00:17:59.885 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt Arbeitgeber, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen grösseren Betrag übernehmen.</font>

  326
  00:18:00.527 --> 00:18:01.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kommt noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die dritte Beitragszahlung,</font>

  327
  00:18:02.607 --> 00:18:05.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist der Kapitalmarkt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber es ist nur die dritte.</font>

  328
  00:18:06.326 --> 00:18:07.966 
  <font color="#ffffff">So verdreifacht man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Regel am Schluss das,</font>

  329
  00:18:08.607 --> 00:18:11.885 
  <font color="#ffffff">was man selber eingezahlt hat.</font>

  330
  00:18:12.527 --> 00:18:13.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist ein gutes Geschäft.</font>

  331
  00:18:14.607 --> 00:18:16.605 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber am Schluss ist es das, was</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der eigenen Vorsorge drin ist.</font>

  332
  00:18:17.247 --> 00:18:18.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man ist ein Stück weit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darauf angewiesen,</font>

  333
  00:18:19.331 --> 00:18:21.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie der dritte Beitragszahler</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aufgestellt ist: der Kapitalmarkt.</font>

  334
  00:18:21.927 --> 00:18:23.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wie lange</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man dann die Rente bezieht.</font>

  335
  00:18:24.007 --> 00:18:25.445 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das habe ich auch gemeint.</font>

  336
  00:18:26.087 --> 00:18:27.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und hätte diese Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht unter der Voraussetzung,</font>

  337
  00:18:28.287 --> 00:18:29.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man das Gefühl hat,</font>

  338
  00:18:30.366 --> 00:18:31.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Umwandlungssatz von 6,8 %</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sei nicht mehr haltbar,</font>

  339
  00:18:32.407 --> 00:18:34.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir in dieser komischen Welt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Negativzinsen angekommen sind.</font>

  340
  00:18:35.048 --> 00:18:36.485 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ökonomisch ist das etwas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch nie zuvor Gesehenes.</font>

  341
  00:18:37.127 --> 00:18:38.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">Uns wurde erklärt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es das gar nicht geben kann.</font>

  342
  00:18:39.287 --> 00:18:40.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">Trotzdem hat es das gegeben.</font>

  343
  00:18:41.366 --> 00:18:43.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor diesem Hintergrund</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat man diese Vorlage gezimmert,</font>

  344
  00:18:43.648 --> 00:18:45.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit dem Ziel, die Rentenleistungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wohl oder übel ab bauen zu müssen.</font>

  345
  00:18:46.447 --> 00:18:48.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber diese Zeiten sind vorbei.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Tiefzinszeiten sind vorbei.</font>

  346
  00:18:48.887 --> 00:18:50.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Zinswende ist gekommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Inflation zieht an.</font>

  347
  00:18:51.407 --> 00:18:53.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt keine Umverteilung mehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von jung nach alt.</font>

  348
  00:18:53.767 --> 00:18:56.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterdessen ist es sogar umgekehrt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">deswegen müssen wir anfangen,</font>

  349
  00:18:56.927 --> 00:18:58.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">über einen Teuerungsausgleich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der zweiten Säule zu diskutieren.</font>

  350
  00:18:59.487 --> 00:19:00.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Vorlage ist einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Zeit gefallen.</font>

  351
  00:19:01.567 --> 00:19:03.045 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn Sie schon</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Umverteilung reden,</font>

  352
  00:19:03.687 --> 00:19:05.285 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Wahrheit ist auch,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es Ihnen darum geht,</font>

  353
  00:19:05.927 --> 00:19:08.688 
  <font color="#00ffff">v.a. in die erste Säule, die AHV,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">umzuverteilen.</font>

  354
  00:19:09.326 --> 00:19:11.445 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die zweite Säule wollen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">eigentlich herunterfahren.</font>

  355
  00:19:12.087 --> 00:19:14.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist interessant.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieser Vorwurf kommt immer wieder.</font>

  356
  00:19:14.768 --> 00:19:17.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sitzen in den Pensionskassen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir gestalten sie mit.</font>

  357
  00:19:18.407 --> 00:19:21.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir finanzieren sie mit.</font>

  358
  00:19:21.728 --> 00:19:24.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wenn ich "wir" sage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">meine ich die Arbeitnehmer.</font>

  359
  00:19:24.687 --> 00:19:26.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Arbeitnehmenden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz ...</font>

  360
  00:19:27.328 --> 00:19:29.485 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist eine proletarische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sozialversicherung.</font>

  361
  00:19:30.127 --> 00:19:32.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir waren die letzten zwei Mal</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch beteiligt</font>

  362
  00:19:32.887 --> 00:19:35.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">am Reformmodell</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die zweite Säule.</font>

  363
  00:19:35.807 --> 00:19:37.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wollen wir schauen,</font>

  364
  00:19:38.007 --> 00:19:39.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es den Versicherten gut geht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dort wo es Sinn macht.</font>

  365
  00:19:40.487 --> 00:19:42.325 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die 13. AHV-Rente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war absolut notwendig.</font>

  366
  00:19:42.967 --> 00:19:45.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">D.h. doch nicht, dass man deswegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die zweite Säule abschaffen soll.</font>

  367
  00:19:45.767 --> 00:19:48.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Gegenteil. Die zweite Säule</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">brauchen wir dort, wo sie stark ist:</font>

  368
  00:19:48.807 --> 00:19:50.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei mittleren Einkommen.</font>

  369
  00:19:51.367 --> 00:19:52.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sprechen nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über viele Garantien.</font>

  370
  00:19:53.567 --> 00:19:55.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir reden hier</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über eine Pensionskassenreform,</font>

  371
  00:19:55.887 --> 00:19:58.445 
  <font color="#ffffff">die möchte, dass man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man 70'000 Fr. verdient -</font>

  372
  00:19:59.087 --> 00:20:01.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">6'000 Fr. im Monat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">genau in der Mitte der Schweiz.</font>

  373
  00:20:02.287 --> 00:20:04.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Bäcker, ein Metzger,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Pflegefachfrau.</font>

  374
  00:20:05.447 --> 00:20:09.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie sollen nach 40 Jahren Einzahlen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">1'500 Fr. Rente haben.</font>

  375
  00:20:10.047 --> 00:20:12.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darüber reden wir.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute hätten sie 1'700 Fr.,</font>

  376
  00:20:13.286 --> 00:20:15.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">nach dieser Reform hätten sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch 1'500 Fr. garantiert.</font>

  377
  00:20:16.567 --> 00:20:19.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Obwohl es den Kassen gut geht.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ergibt doch keinen Sinn.</font>

  378
  00:20:20.047 --> 00:20:23.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">Oh, jetzt möchte ich viel entgegnen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Erst einmal dieses Zahlenbeispiel.</font>

  379
  00:20:24.207 --> 00:20:27.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann für jede Reform ...</font>

  380
  00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:29.445 
  <font color="#ffffff">Keine Reform hat nur Gewinnerinnen.</font>

  381
  00:20:30.087 --> 00:20:32.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt immer auch Leute,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die verlieren.</font>

  382
  00:20:32.806 --> 00:20:34.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann für jede Reform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Zahlenbeispiel finden,</font>

  383
  00:20:35.607 --> 00:20:38.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei dem jemand besser gestellt wird</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und jemand schlechter.</font>

  384
  00:20:38.687 --> 00:20:41.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber was das Entscheidende ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in dieser Vorlage,</font>

  385
  00:20:42.327 --> 00:20:43.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das Gesamtbild für unser Land.</font>

  386
  00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:46.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade, weil dieses Gesamtbild so</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entscheidend ist, das grosse Ganze,</font>

  387
  00:20:47.447 --> 00:20:49.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">und weil jeder Fall individuell ist,</font>

  388
  00:20:49.767 --> 00:20:51.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">wollten wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der Alliance F wissen,</font>

  389
  00:20:52.047 --> 00:20:53.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie die Betroffenheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">tatsächlich ist.</font>

  390
  00:20:54.291 --> 00:20:57.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir gaben eine Studie mit einer re-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">präsentativen Datenlage in Auftrag.</font>

  391
  00:20:58.208 --> 00:21:02.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort wurde belegt, dass 360'000</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Personen eine höhere Rente bekommen.</font>

  392
  00:21:03.048 --> 00:21:07.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">Davon sind 275'000 Frauen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind doppelt so viele Personen,</font>

  393
  00:21:07.806 --> 00:21:10.325 
  <font color="#ffffff">die eine höhere Rente bekommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als eine tiefere.</font>

  394
  00:21:10.967 --> 00:21:12.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei den Frauen sind es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sogar viermal so viel Frauen,</font>

  395
  00:21:13.446 --> 00:21:17.205 
  <font color="#ffffff">die mehr Rente erhalten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf eine, die weniger bekommt.</font>

  396
  00:21:17.847 --> 00:21:20.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ganz wichtig:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat diese Studie auch belegt.</font>

  397
  00:21:20.687 --> 00:21:23.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es profitieren v.a. tiefe Einkommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeit und die Frauen.</font>

  398
  00:21:24.406 --> 00:21:27.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wurde belegt.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte noch schnell etwas ...</font>

  399
  00:21:28.046 --> 00:21:29.645 
  <font color="#00ffff">Also es ist eine Studie,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die die Alliance F,</font>

  400
  00:21:30.287 --> 00:21:31.925 
  <font color="#00ffff">von der sie Co-Präsidentin sind,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in Auftrag gegeben hat.</font>

  401
  00:21:32.566 --> 00:21:34.245 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist das Resultat dieser Studie.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Absolut.</font>

  402
  00:21:34.887 --> 00:21:37.525 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist aber ein renommiertes</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">volkswirtschaftliches Beratungsbüro,</font>

  403
  00:21:38.167 --> 00:21:40.724 
  <font color="#ffffff">das u.a. auch schon für die SP</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aufträge durchgeführt hat.</font>

  404
  00:21:42.128 --> 00:21:45.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben bewusst jemand</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr Unabhängiges ausgewählt.</font>

  405
  00:21:46.607 --> 00:21:48.565 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wollten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine repräsentative Datenlage,</font>

  406
  00:21:49.207 --> 00:21:51.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil man nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an diesen Einzelfallbeispielen</font>

  407
  00:21:51.927 --> 00:21:54.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Vorlage beurteilen soll,</font>

  408
  00:21:54.687 --> 00:21:56.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil man für jeden Fall ein Beispiel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dafür oder dagegen findet.</font>

  409
  00:21:57.287 --> 00:22:00.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und weil es um die Gesamtperspektive</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geht. Diese ist hier positiv.</font>

  410
  00:22:00.886 --> 00:22:03.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kathrin, du weisst,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich liebe solche Studien.</font>

  411
  00:22:04.046 --> 00:22:05.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum habe ich auch eure</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr genau angeschaut.</font>

  412
  00:22:06.567 --> 00:22:08.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gabriela im Übrigen auch.</font>

  413
  00:22:09.127 --> 00:22:11.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbst die Autoren - weil es eben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein seriöses Institut ist -</font>

  414
  00:22:12.567 --> 00:22:14.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">schreiben in dieser Studie,</font>

  415
  00:22:14.927 --> 00:22:18.004 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass alle Leute,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ergänzungsleistungen beziehen,</font>

  416
  00:22:18.647 --> 00:22:20.844 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht eingerechnet sind.</font>

  417
  00:22:21.487 --> 00:22:23.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist im Moment immerhin jede</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">siebte Frau, die in Pension geht.</font>

  418
  00:22:24.486 --> 00:22:27.445 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jede siebte Frau bekommt aktuell</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusätzliche Ergänzungsleistungen,</font>

  419
  00:22:28.087 --> 00:22:30.485 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil ihre Rente nicht reicht.</font>

  420
  00:22:31.127 --> 00:22:33.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau diese Frauen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">würden mit dieser Vorlage</font>

  421
  00:22:33.886 --> 00:22:36.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Lohnbeiträge</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr einzahlen müssen.</font>

  422
  00:22:36.887 --> 00:22:39.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber sie würden im Alter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keinen Rappen mehr bekommen.</font>

  423
  00:22:40.286 --> 00:22:42.765 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn die steigenden Einkommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der zweiten Säule</font>

  424
  00:22:43.407 --> 00:22:44.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">führen schlicht und einfach dazu,</font>

  425
  00:22:45.567 --> 00:22:47.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ergänzungsleistungen sinken.</font>

  426
  00:22:47.927 --> 00:22:50.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das schrieb im Übrigen auch die ETH,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Konjunkturforschungsstelle</font>

  427
  00:22:50.686 --> 00:22:52.324 
  <font color="#ffffff">führte ebenfalls eine Studie durch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und sagt genau das.</font>

  428
  00:22:52.966 --> 00:22:55.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade für die tiefen Einkommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bringt die Reform in erster Linie</font>

  429
  00:22:55.806 --> 00:22:58.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">höhere Kosten im Erwerbsleben, führt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber nicht zu einer höheren Rente,</font>

  430
  00:22:58.927 --> 00:23:01.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern einfach zu einer Kürzung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Ergänzungsleitungen.</font>

  431
  00:23:01.807 --> 00:23:03.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es kann nicht sein, dass ausge-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rechnet die Tiefsten mehr zahlen</font>

  432
  00:23:04.487 --> 00:23:06.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann ins Leere schauen.</font>

  433
  00:23:07.447 --> 00:23:09.364 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein spezielles Argument.</font>

  434
  00:23:10.006 --> 00:23:12.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass Frauen in der Ergänzungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">leistung bleiben können sollen.</font>

  435
  00:23:12.766 --> 00:23:14.964 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade bei der AHV-Abstimmung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war es ein zentrales Anliegen</font>

  436
  00:23:15.606 --> 00:23:17.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Einführung der 13. AHV.</font>

  437
  00:23:18.127 --> 00:23:20.205 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man sagte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Leute sollten die Rente bekommen</font>

  438
  00:23:20.846 --> 00:23:23.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">und nicht von der Ergänzungsleistung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abhängig sein,</font>

  439
  00:23:23.727 --> 00:23:26.804 
  <font color="#ffffff">die manchmal etwas kompliziert ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu beantragen.</font>

  440
  00:23:27.446 --> 00:23:31.324 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt auch Leute, die denken,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie dann Bittsteller sind,</font>

  441
  00:23:31.966 --> 00:23:33.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">obwohl sie es nicht sind.</font>

  442
  00:23:34.566 --> 00:23:38.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde es viel besser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und zukunftsrichtiger,</font>

  443
  00:23:39.367 --> 00:23:41.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man die Frauen dazu bringt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und es ihnen ermöglicht,</font>

  444
  00:23:41.927 --> 00:23:43.444 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine eigene Pensionskasse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aufzubauen,</font>

  445
  00:23:44.086 --> 00:23:45.844 
  <font color="#ffffff">die es ihnen ermöglicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für sich selbst zu sorgen,</font>

  446
  00:23:46.486 --> 00:23:48.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">statt dass man dann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ergänzungsleistungen besorgen muss.</font>

  447
  00:23:49.286 --> 00:23:50.844 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ergänzungsleistungen - EL.</font>

  448
  00:23:51.486 --> 00:23:53.364 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben eine Grafik vorbereitet,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie das aktuell aussieht.</font>

  449
  00:23:54.006 --> 00:23:55.725 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es sind eindrückliche Zahlen.</font>

  450
  00:23:56.366 --> 00:23:59.686 
  <font color="#00ffff">293'642 Menschen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die das beanspruchen.</font>

  451
  00:24:00.327 --> 00:24:05.404 
  <font color="#00ffff">Davon sind 145'960 Frauen.</font>

  452
  00:24:06.972 --> 00:24:09.844 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sagen aber, der Weg ist eigent-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">lich, dass man sich nicht schämt,</font>

  453
  00:24:10.486 --> 00:24:12.125 
  <font color="#00ffff">dies zu beanspruchen.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Habe ich das richtig verstanden?</font>

  454
  00:24:12.766 --> 00:24:14.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Weg ist, es zu schaffen,</font>

  455
  00:24:15.006 --> 00:24:16.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">aus eigener Kraft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Altersvorsorge aufzubauen,</font>

  456
  00:24:17.287 --> 00:24:19.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">um so zu schaffen, dass man keine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ergänzungsleistungen mehr braucht.</font>

  457
  00:24:20.286 --> 00:24:22.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Ergänzungsleistungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">werden v.a. von älteren Frauen -</font>

  458
  00:24:24.048 --> 00:24:26.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">also auch ältere Frauen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Pensionsalter - beantragt.</font>

  459
  00:24:28.568 --> 00:24:31.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil sie eben z.T.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch keine Pensionskasse hatten</font>

  460
  00:24:32.486 --> 00:24:34.964 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder auch nicht arbeiteten.</font>

  461
  00:24:35.606 --> 00:24:37.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube, für junge Menschen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie hier im Studio,</font>

  462
  00:24:37.726 --> 00:24:40.284 
  <font color="#ffffff">die anfangen zu arbeiten, ist es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wichtig, von Anfang an zu wissen,</font>

  463
  00:24:40.926 --> 00:24:43.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man fürs Alter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas sparen muss.</font>

  464
  00:24:43.649 --> 00:24:45.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dass man darauf zählen kann,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Arbeitgeber</font>

  465
  00:24:45.846 --> 00:24:47.525 
  <font color="#ffffff">und eben auch der Kapitalmarkt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Betrag vervielfacht.</font>

  466
  00:24:48.166 --> 00:24:49.645 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vielen Dank, Frau Barandun,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für diesen Steilpass.</font>

  467
  00:24:50.286 --> 00:24:51.725 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was macht der Moderator jetzt?</font>

  468
  00:24:52.367 --> 00:24:55.364 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das muss er fast machen, wenn einer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Gäste von jungen Menschen redet,</font>

  469
  00:24:56.009 --> 00:24:57.444 
  <font color="#00ffff">die am Anfang ihres Berufslebens</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">stehen.</font>

  470
  00:24:58.086 --> 00:25:00.724 
  <font color="#00ffff">Keine Angst, wir reden nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">über EL, technische Sachen, BVG usw.</font>

  471
  00:25:01.366 --> 00:25:03.324 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich nehme an, die ganze</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Altersvorsorge ist nicht etwas,</font>

  472
  00:25:03.966 --> 00:25:05.485 
  <font color="#00ffff">was Sie ernsthaft beschäftigt.</font>

  473
  00:25:06.126 --> 00:25:08.165 
  <font color="#00ffff">Schon mehr, ob die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">morgen Italien schlägt, oder?</font>

  474
  00:25:08.806 --> 00:25:12.604 
  <font color="#008000">Als Fussballfan schon, ja.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Aber wenn Sie das so hören.</font>

  475
  00:25:13.247 --> 00:25:17.124 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Altersvorsorge ist wohl etwas,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">worüber ihr nie redet, oder?</font>

  476
  00:25:17.766 --> 00:25:20.444 
  <font color="#008000">Ja ... Jetzt kommt es langsam auf.</font>

  477
  00:25:21.086 --> 00:25:24.045 
  <font color="#008000">Aber jetzt bin ich 20, mit 15 oder</font>
  <font color="#008000">16 war es noch nicht so ein Thema.</font>

  478
  00:25:24.686 --> 00:25:26.285 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was machen Sie im Leben?</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Woher kommen sie?</font>

  479
  00:25:26.927 --> 00:25:29.524 
  <font color="#008000">Ich komme aus Ebikon, ich leiste</font>
  <font color="#008000">Zivildienst an der Schule Wydenhof.</font>

  480
  00:25:30.165 --> 00:25:32.527 
  <font color="#00ffff">Okay. Darf ich Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vielleicht noch kurz fragen?</font>

  481
  00:25:33.166 --> 00:25:34.644 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was haben Sie beruflich vor</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">im Leben?</font>

  482
  00:25:35.286 --> 00:25:37.284 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich bin im Wydenhof in Ebikon</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Lehrperson.</font>

  483
  00:25:37.926 --> 00:25:40.805 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lehrperson. Daneben?</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">- Ich bin Schülerin im Wydenhof.</font>

  484
  00:25:41.446 --> 00:25:44.485 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was wollen Sie im Leben machen?</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">- Ich werde eine KV-Lehre beginnen.</font>

  485
  00:25:45.127 --> 00:25:46.644 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das kann ich sehr empfehlen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das habe ich auch getan.</font>

  486
  00:25:47.287 --> 00:25:48.924 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eine Superlehre.</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">- Dankeschön.</font>

  487
  00:25:49.566 --> 00:25:51.724 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber eine Altersvorsorge,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das ist sicherlich nicht etwas,</font>

  488
  00:25:52.366 --> 00:25:54.484 
  <font color="#00ffff">was Sie beschäftigt. Mich hat das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu dieser Zeit nicht beschäftigt.</font>

  489
  00:25:55.126 --> 00:25:57.605 
  <font color="#ffff00">Nein, mich auch nicht.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Was machen Sie?</font>

  490
  00:25:58.246 --> 00:25:59.684 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich bin auch Schülerin im Wydenhof.</font>

  491
  00:26:00.327 --> 00:26:01.885 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was wollen Sie in Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beruflich machen?</font>

  492
  00:26:02.527 --> 00:26:03.964 
  <font color="#ffff00">Nach der Schule mache ich das KV.</font>

  493
  00:26:04.606 --> 00:26:07.044 
  <font color="#00ffff">Okay, alles klar.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Wunderbar, besten Dank.</font>

  494
  00:26:07.686 --> 00:26:09.848 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist immer wieder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auch ein Bewusstsein dafür,</font>

  495
  00:26:10.486 --> 00:26:13.844 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass Sie, die sehr nahe am Thema</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sind, bei der grossen Linie bleiben</font>

  496
  00:26:14.486 --> 00:26:17.084 
  <font color="#00ffff">und das gemeinsam anschauen.</font>

  497
  00:26:18.287 --> 00:26:21.444 
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Medici, wie erklären Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einem jungen Menschen,</font>

  498
  00:26:22.086 --> 00:26:24.684 
  <font color="#00ffff">warum man eine solche Vorlage,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei der es darum geht,</font>

  499
  00:26:25.326 --> 00:26:28.324 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass man vielleicht auch Menschen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die weniger Einkommen haben,</font>

  500
  00:26:28.966 --> 00:26:31.644 
  <font color="#00ffff">besser stützt und für</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die zweite Säule bereitmacht,</font>

  501
  00:26:32.286 --> 00:26:34.204 
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht annehmen soll?</font>

  502
  00:26:34.847 --> 00:26:37.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch einmal,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in dieser Vorlage geht es darum:</font>

  503
  00:26:37.646 --> 00:26:40.524 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit dieser Vorlage wir als aller-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erstes der Umwandlungssatz gesenkt.</font>

  504
  00:26:42.967 --> 00:26:45.444 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für gleich viel Kapital</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt es weniger Rente.</font>

  505
  00:26:46.086 --> 00:26:48.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie haben es selbst gezeigt.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Senkung ist relativ gross.</font>

  506
  00:26:48.807 --> 00:26:50.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alles, was folgt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind Kompensationen.</font>

  507
  00:26:51.527 --> 00:26:53.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">D. h., man versucht es wieder aufzu-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">füllen und schafft es nicht ganz.</font>

  508
  00:26:54.566 --> 00:26:56.563 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Schwierigkeit.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Was heisst auffüllen?</font>

  509
  00:26:57.206 --> 00:26:59.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auffüllen heisst, 100-200 Fr. mehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">pro Monat einzuzahlen,</font>

  510
  00:27:01.048 --> 00:27:04.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">während 40 Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in gewissen Fällen im Publikum.</font>

  511
  00:27:05.246 --> 00:27:08.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">Um danach eine Rente zu bekommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die weniger hoch ist als das,</font>

  512
  00:27:08.926 --> 00:27:14.924 
  <font color="#ffffff">was sie heute hätten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn sie über 5'000 Fr. verdienen.</font>

  513
  00:27:15.806 --> 00:27:19.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und die in 40 Jahren höher wäre,</font>

  514
  00:27:20.247 --> 00:27:23.844 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn sie wirklich schlecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verdienen. Aber was heisst höher?</font>

  515
  00:27:24.486 --> 00:27:27.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir reden von Pensionskassenrenten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die immer noch unter 1'000 Fr. sind,</font>

  516
  00:27:28.408 --> 00:27:31.043 
  <font color="#ffffff">also weit unter dieser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">finanziellen Selbstständigkeit,</font>

  517
  00:27:31.686 --> 00:27:33.524 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wohl das gemeinsame Ziel ist.</font>

  518
  00:27:34.166 --> 00:27:36.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch von Alliance F</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und den Gewerkschaftsfrauen.</font>

  519
  00:27:36.731 --> 00:27:38.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es geht darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir eigenständig leben können.</font>

  520
  00:27:39.526 --> 00:27:42.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kann man nicht, hingegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man sehr viel dafür zahlen.</font>

  521
  00:27:42.686 --> 00:27:44.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte gerne</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch etwas anderes sagen.</font>

  522
  00:27:45.246 --> 00:27:46.724 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hätte es lösen können.</font>

  523
  00:27:47.366 --> 00:27:49.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hätte Kompensationen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machen können,</font>

  524
  00:27:49.966 --> 00:27:51.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">die diesem Namen gerecht werden.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Was hat das Parlament getan?</font>

  525
  00:27:52.526 --> 00:27:54.404 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es hat einen riesigen Papiertiger</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geschaffen.</font>

  526
  00:27:55.046 --> 00:27:56.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Bürokratiemonster" ist ein Wort,</font>

  527
  00:27:57.286 --> 00:27:58.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">was ich selten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der "Handelszeitung" lese.</font>

  528
  00:27:59.567 --> 00:28:01.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es steht heute so drin.</font>

  529
  00:28:01.846 --> 00:28:03.524 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Bürokratiemonster,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das dazu führt,</font>

  530
  00:28:04.166 --> 00:28:07.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass 1,5 % aller Versicherten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die volle Kompensation bekommen.</font>

  531
  00:28:08.014 --> 00:28:10.324 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist so komplex</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und so absurd ausgestaltet,</font>

  532
  00:28:10.966 --> 00:28:13.404 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es passieren könnte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der geschiedene Banker,</font>

  533
  00:28:14.046 --> 00:28:17.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">der schön runterfahren kann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einem Teil Kapitalbezug,</font>

  534
  00:28:18.607 --> 00:28:21.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine volle Komp...</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Das ist ein Fallbeispiel.</font>

  535
  00:28:22.246 --> 00:28:24.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, aber ...  - Das könnte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sonst ein Geschiedener sein.</font>

  536
  00:28:25.005 --> 00:28:27.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbstverständlich. Ein geschiedener</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Banker, der sich gut beraten lässt,</font>

  537
  00:28:28.125 --> 00:28:30.284 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat dann die volle Kompensation.</font>

  538
  00:28:30.926 --> 00:28:32.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und die Bäckereiverkäuferin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat nichts.</font>

  539
  00:28:33.326 --> 00:28:35.524 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist real</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Auswirkung dieser Reform.</font>

  540
  00:28:36.166 --> 00:28:37.964 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eben, "Bürokratiemonster"</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist ein Wort, was sie benutzen.</font>

  541
  00:28:38.606 --> 00:28:40.403 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben auch schon das Wort</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">"Pfusch" benutzt, richtig?</font>

  542
  00:28:41.045 --> 00:28:41.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">Richtig.</font>

  543
  00:28:41.966 --> 00:28:43.523 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ein Pfusch sei gezimmert worden,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Barandun.</font>

  544
  00:28:44.165 --> 00:28:45.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube, es ist eben kein Pfusch,</font>

  545
  00:28:46.247 --> 00:28:47.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein gutschweizerischer Kompromiss.</font>

  546
  00:28:48.325 --> 00:28:50.324 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jeder hat ein wenig Federn gelassen.</font>

  547
  00:28:50.966 --> 00:28:52.284 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade aus dem Gewerbe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das muss man sagen.</font>

  548
  00:28:52.926 --> 00:28:54.244 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir tragen einiges dazu bei.</font>

  549
  00:28:54.886 --> 00:28:57.004 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte darauf hinweisen, diese</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Senkung dieses Umwandlungssatzes,</font>

  550
  00:28:57.646 --> 00:29:00.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">das passiert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nur im obligatorischen Bereich.</font>

  551
  00:29:00.845 --> 00:29:03.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im überobligatorischen Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat das lange stattgefunden.</font>

  552
  00:29:04.286 --> 00:29:07.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">85 % der Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind gar nicht betroffen.</font>

  553
  00:29:07.685 --> 00:29:10.244 
  <font color="#ffffff">Warum ist es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im überobligatorischen Bereich so?</font>

  554
  00:29:10.885 --> 00:29:12.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil es so sein muss.</font>

  555
  00:29:13.206 --> 00:29:15.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil man sonst eine Umverteilung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von den Jungen zu den Alten hat.</font>

  556
  00:29:15.885 --> 00:29:17.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht fair</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und kann nicht sein.</font>

  557
  00:29:18.245 --> 00:29:19.923 
  <font color="#00ffff">Einschub: Überobligatorisch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in zwei Sätzen erklärt?</font>

  558
  00:29:20.565 --> 00:29:23.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt einen gewissen Betrag,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der obligatorisch versichert ist.</font>

  559
  00:29:24.125 --> 00:29:27.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort sagt das Gesetz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was der Umwandlungssatz sein muss.</font>

  560
  00:29:27.686 --> 00:29:29.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Überobligatorisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind die höheren Löhne,</font>

  561
  00:29:30.326 --> 00:29:32.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">es sind glaube ich 88'000 Fr.</font>

  562
  00:29:33.245 --> 00:29:35.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort haben die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">andere Umwandlungssätze,</font>

  563
  00:29:36.525 --> 00:29:38.043 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sie festlegen dürfen.</font>

  564
  00:29:38.685 --> 00:29:40.244 
  <font color="#ffffff">Anders formuliert kann man sagen,</font>

  565
  00:29:40.885 --> 00:29:42.325 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Gesetz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">steht das absolute Minimum.</font>

  566
  00:29:42.966 --> 00:29:44.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber weil es so schlecht ist, haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die allermeisten Pensionskassen</font>

  567
  00:29:45.286 --> 00:29:46.964 
  <font color="#ffffff">für ihre Versicherten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bessere Lösungen gefunden.</font>

  568
  00:29:47.927 --> 00:29:51.004 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Gesetz ist das einzige,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das einem für alle Zeit garantiert,</font>

  569
  00:29:51.645 --> 00:29:53.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">egal,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es an den Finanzmärkten läuft,</font>

  570
  00:29:54.245 --> 00:29:56.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob man im Stiftungsrat der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Pensionskassen Fehler gemacht hat.</font>

  571
  00:29:57.287 --> 00:30:00.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das steht einem zu, wenn man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Leben lang gearbeitet hat.</font>

  572
  00:30:01.326 --> 00:30:03.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Minimum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist heute schon so tief.</font>

  573
  00:30:03.766 --> 00:30:06.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit der Senkung des Umwandlungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">satzes wird es noch tiefer werden.</font>

  574
  00:30:06.686 --> 00:30:09.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum betrifft das eben alle.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn die Rente ist eine Garantie.</font>

  575
  00:30:10.525 --> 00:30:12.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Rentenversprechen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das uns allen zusteht.</font>

  576
  00:30:13.005 --> 00:30:15.444 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte noch etwas ansprechen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weil es der Elefant im Raum ist.</font>

  577
  00:30:16.087 --> 00:30:19.244 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was uns eint,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist das Tolle an dieser Runde:</font>

  578
  00:30:19.886 --> 00:30:22.524 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir setzen uns alle im Parlament</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für Frauenanliegen ein.</font>

  579
  00:30:23.166 --> 00:30:25.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir stehen auch oft auf der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleichen Seite, wenn es darum geht,</font>

  580
  00:30:26.005 --> 00:30:27.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas für Frauen zu erkämpfen.</font>

  581
  00:30:28.285 --> 00:30:30.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber der Elefant im Raum ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heute Abend die Betreuungsarbeit.</font>

  582
  00:30:31.330 --> 00:30:33.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Familienarbeit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Frauen in diesem Land</font>

  583
  00:30:33.925 --> 00:30:35.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">nach wie vor</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu grossen Teilen leisten.</font>

  584
  00:30:36.325 --> 00:30:38.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist Arbeit im Wert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von 200 Mrd. Fr. pro Jahr.</font>

  585
  00:30:39.285 --> 00:30:41.964 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese 200 Mrd. Fr.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind nicht versichert.</font>

  586
  00:30:42.606 --> 00:30:45.043 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurde in dieser Vorlage verpasst.</font>

  587
  00:30:46.086 --> 00:30:48.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wäre auch das einzige,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was den Frauen gerecht werden würde.</font>

  588
  00:30:49.525 --> 00:30:52.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sog. Betreuungsgutschriften.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir kennen es von der AHV.</font>

  589
  00:30:52.646 --> 00:30:54.404 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wozu führt es dort?</font>

  590
  00:30:55.046 --> 00:30:57.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass die Frauen eine höhere AHV-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rente als die Männer haben. Wieso?</font>

  591
  00:30:58.526 --> 00:31:00.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">Uns erstaunt das nicht,</font>

  592
  00:31:00.845 --> 00:31:03.163 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie nämlich im Schnitt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr arbeiten als Männer.</font>

  593
  00:31:03.805 --> 00:31:05.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist, was</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der beruflichen Vorsorge fehlt.</font>

  594
  00:31:06.125 --> 00:31:07.563 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Anerkennung dieser Sorgearbeit,</font>

  595
  00:31:08.205 --> 00:31:11.443 
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Grundlage jedes</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gewerbebetriebs ist, jeder Firma,</font>

  596
  00:31:12.085 --> 00:31:13.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">jedes grossen Konzerns</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in diesem Land,</font>

  597
  00:31:14.285 --> 00:31:16.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass überhaupt jeden Tag produziert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und gearbeitet werden kann.</font>

  598
  00:31:16.846 --> 00:31:19.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Grundlage davon ist, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ganz viele Menschen in diesem Land</font>

  599
  00:31:19.885 --> 00:31:21.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">unbezahlte Sorgearbeit leisten.</font>

  600
  00:31:22.006 --> 00:31:23.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie wird auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Zukunft verschwinden.</font>

  601
  00:31:24.125 --> 00:31:25.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch in Zukunft muss man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Kindern die Windeln wechseln,</font>

  602
  00:31:26.125 --> 00:31:28.083 
  <font color="#ffffff">Tränen abwischen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kranke Angehörige pflegen.</font>

  603
  00:31:28.725 --> 00:31:31.284 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Arbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">braucht mehr Anerkennung.</font>

  604
  00:31:31.925 --> 00:31:33.404 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sonst hat man die Frauenrente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht verbessert.</font>

  605
  00:31:34.046 --> 00:31:35.803 
  <font color="#00ffff">Transparenzhalber</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">muss man auch noch sagen,</font>

  606
  00:31:36.445 --> 00:31:39.123 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass die SP ihre Mitgliedschaft</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei Alliance F sistieren liess,</font>

  607
  00:31:41.367 --> 00:31:44.443 
  <font color="#00ffff">weil man sich hier in Bezug auf</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Ausgestaltung nicht einig war.</font>

  608
  00:31:46.127 --> 00:31:49.044 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber trotzdem ihre Reaktion darauf,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass man das ein wenig vergisst,</font>

  609
  00:31:49.685 --> 00:31:51.407 
  <font color="#00ffff">diesen Elefant im Raum.</font>

  610
  00:31:51.966 --> 00:31:53.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir reden hier über</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die private berufliche Vorsorge.</font>

  611
  00:31:54.686 --> 00:31:57.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Natürlich braucht es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bessere Rahmenbedingungen für Leute,</font>

  612
  00:31:58.125 --> 00:32:00.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Care Arbeit leisten.</font>

  613
  00:32:00.765 --> 00:32:03.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Namentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erschwingliche Kita-Tarife.</font>

  614
  00:32:03.725 --> 00:32:05.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber hier geht es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um die berufliche Vorsorge.</font>

  615
  00:32:06.285 --> 00:32:08.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht ist es wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir noch einmal erklären,</font>

  616
  00:32:08.686 --> 00:32:10.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie diese funktioniert.</font>

  617
  00:32:10.764 --> 00:32:12.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Arbeitnehmerin, der Arbeitnehmer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zahlt den Franken ein,</font>

  618
  00:32:13.245 --> 00:32:14.923 
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser wird mind. verdoppelt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch den Arbeitgeber</font>

  619
  00:32:15.565 --> 00:32:17.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann kommt noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mind. ein Drittel drauf</font>

  620
  00:32:17.965 --> 00:32:19.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">durch den dritten Beitragszahler,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Zins.</font>

  621
  00:32:20.525 --> 00:32:22.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der höchste Beitragszahler</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gewesen in den letzten 20 Jahren.</font>

  622
  00:32:23.405 --> 00:32:26.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum ist es gut, wenn die Pensions-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kassen eine hohe Rendite machen.</font>

  623
  00:32:26.725 --> 00:32:28.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kommt uns allen zugute.</font>

  624
  00:32:29.285 --> 00:32:31.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben dann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr Kapital angespart.</font>

  625
  00:32:31.645 --> 00:32:34.523 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann wandelt man dieses Kapital</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei Renteneintritt um.</font>

  626
  00:32:35.165 --> 00:32:36.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der Umwandlungssatz.</font>

  627
  00:32:37.525 --> 00:32:39.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Moment ist dieser gesetzlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei 6,8 %.</font>

  628
  00:32:40.285 --> 00:32:42.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann sich das selbst überlegen.</font>

  629
  00:32:42.725 --> 00:32:45.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sollte für die Anzahl Lebens-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jahre reichen, die man erwartet.</font>

  630
  00:32:46.765 --> 00:32:51.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">6,8 auf 100,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das sind noch gut 14 Jahre.</font>

  631
  00:32:51.765 --> 00:32:55.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Erfreulicherweise leben wir heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber noch rund 20 oder 22 Jahre.</font>

  632
  00:32:55.652 --> 00:32:57.963 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Lebenserwartung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei Pensionierung.</font>

  633
  00:32:58.605 --> 00:33:00.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Rechenbeispiel zeigt,</font>

  634
  00:33:01.126 --> 00:33:02.963 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Umwandlungssatz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">deutlich zu hoch ist.</font>

  635
  00:33:03.605 --> 00:33:06.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der Grund dafür, dass die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Pensionskassen ihn anpassen mussten.</font>

  636
  00:33:06.645 --> 00:33:09.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür haben sie überobligatorische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gelder verwendet.</font>

  637
  00:33:09.885 --> 00:33:12.083 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur 15 % der Versicherten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind noch betroffen</font>

  638
  00:33:12.725 --> 00:33:16.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">von diesem Umwandlungssatz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der noch angepasst wird.</font>

  639
  00:33:16.965 --> 00:33:19.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Gegenzug</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bekommen sie aber Rentenzuschläge.</font>

  640
  00:33:20.125 --> 00:33:22.563 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich fand es vorhin speziell,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass Frau Medici</font>

  641
  00:33:23.205 --> 00:33:26.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgerechnet die selber ausgehandel-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ten Rentenzuschläge kritisierte.</font>

  642
  00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:28.523 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass diese auch jemanden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zugute kommen könnten,</font>

  643
  00:33:29.166 --> 00:33:30.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">der sie gar nicht braucht.</font>

  644
  00:33:31.245 --> 00:33:32.923 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie sind nämlich tatsächlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr grosszügig ausgefallen.</font>

  645
  00:33:33.565 --> 00:33:35.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Kompensation für</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Senkung des Umwandlungssatzes,</font>

  646
  00:33:36.126 --> 00:33:38.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">der nur noch 15 % der Versicherten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">betrifft.</font>

  647
  00:33:39.405 --> 00:33:41.923 
  <font color="#ffffff">In dieser Vorlage ist wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir endlich modernisieren,</font>

  648
  00:33:42.565 --> 00:33:45.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">um die Teilzeitarbeitenden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und kleinen Einkommen</font>

  649
  00:33:45.845 --> 00:33:47.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">besser absichern zu können.</font>

  650
  00:33:47.965 --> 00:33:49.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau das gelingt hier mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser Reform, deswegen ist sie gut.</font>

  651
  00:33:50.365 --> 00:33:52.003 
  <font color="#00ffff">Einen Sprung in die Zukunft machen</font>

  652
  00:33:52.645 --> 00:33:54.163 
  <font color="#00ffff">und Sie, Frau Medici,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bleiben lieber stehen.</font>

  653
  00:33:54.805 --> 00:33:56.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, ich möchte einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine andere Zukunft.</font>

  654
  00:33:57.005 --> 00:33:59.523 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte, dass wir eine Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machen, die dort ansetzt,</font>

  655
  00:34:00.165 --> 00:34:02.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo wir heute in der Realität sind.</font>

  656
  00:34:03.245 --> 00:34:04.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Bertschy</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat es vorhin gut erklärt,</font>

  657
  00:34:05.365 --> 00:34:07.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie die Kapitaldeckung eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">funktioniert:</font>

  658
  00:34:07.765 --> 00:34:10.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man zahlt ein, bekommt einen Zins,</font>

  659
  00:34:10.846 --> 00:34:12.563 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann gibt es ein Guthaben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das wächst.</font>

  660
  00:34:13.204 --> 00:34:15.161 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schauen wir, was das konkret heisst.</font>

  661
  00:34:15.804 --> 00:34:18.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Konkret haben wir heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über 1 Billion Fr.</font>

  662
  00:34:19.525 --> 00:34:21.163 
  <font color="#ffffff">in den Pensionskassen angespart.</font>

  663
  00:34:21.804 --> 00:34:23.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich weiss nicht genau ...</font>

  664
  00:34:23.844 --> 00:34:25.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kann mir diesen Betrag</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kaum vorstellen.</font>

  665
  00:34:25.925 --> 00:34:27.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind unglaublich viele Nullen.</font>

  666
  00:34:27.926 --> 00:34:29.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">1'000 Mrd., wir haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über 1'000 Mrd. angespart.</font>

  667
  00:34:30.004 --> 00:34:31.443 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wer profitiert wirklich davon?</font>

  668
  00:34:32.083 --> 00:34:34.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind diejenigen, die mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Pensionskasse Geld verdienen,</font>

  669
  00:34:34.764 --> 00:34:36.882 
  <font color="#ffffff">die weiter profitieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn wir noch mehr Geld einzahlen.</font>

  670
  00:34:37.525 --> 00:34:39.922 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit dieser Reform sollen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jährlich 2,1 Mrd. Fr. zusätzlich</font>

  671
  00:34:40.565 --> 00:34:42.963 
  <font color="#ffffff">in diese Pensionskassen einzahlen.</font>

  672
  00:34:43.605 --> 00:34:47.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute kostet die Durchführung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jährlich schon 7 Mrd. Fr.</font>

  673
  00:34:48.364 --> 00:34:51.364 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist eine Zahl,</font>

  674
  00:34:52.005 --> 00:34:54.882 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich übrigens in den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">letzten zehn Jahren verdoppelt hat.</font>

  675
  00:34:55.525 --> 00:34:58.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir lassen die Kostenfrage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausser Acht. Die Kosten explodieren.</font>

  676
  00:34:59.005 --> 00:35:00.923 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben kein privates Sparen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern eine Sozialversicherung.</font>

  677
  00:35:01.565 --> 00:35:04.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben die Aufgabe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Verpflichtung zu schauen,</font>

  678
  00:35:05.124 --> 00:35:08.128 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wenn wir die Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schon dazu zwingen, zu sparen,</font>

  679
  00:35:08.764 --> 00:35:11.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das auch effizient passiert.</font>

  680
  00:35:11.766 --> 00:35:14.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Schweiz haben wir ein System,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben Preisüberwacher,</font>

  681
  00:35:14.885 --> 00:35:17.043 
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Kosten jedes Kehrichtsacks</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anschauen,</font>

  682
  00:35:17.685 --> 00:35:19.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob das effizient ist oder nicht.</font>

  683
  00:35:19.925 --> 00:35:22.242 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei der Pensionskasse schaut niemand</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hin. Das müssten wir schauen.</font>

  684
  00:35:22.888 --> 00:35:24.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann könnte man sofort Geld sparen</font>

  685
  00:35:25.284 --> 00:35:27.403 
  <font color="#ffffff">und wir bräuchten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine zusätzlichen Beiträge.</font>

  686
  00:35:28.045 --> 00:35:29.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sondern wir hätten einfach Leute,</font>

  687
  00:35:30.285 --> 00:35:31.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">die ein bisschen weniger</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">damit verdienen würden.</font>

  688
  00:35:32.405 --> 00:35:34.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das BVG funktioniert anders</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als die AHV.</font>

  689
  00:35:34.845 --> 00:35:36.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der AHV wird das Geld</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weniger lang angelegt,</font>

  690
  00:35:37.245 --> 00:35:40.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">im BVG über eine sehr lange Zeit.</font>

  691
  00:35:41.004 --> 00:35:43.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das BVG hat eine höhere Rendite.</font>

  692
  00:35:43.844 --> 00:35:45.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hansueli Schöchli hat das kürzlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der "NZZ" aufgezeigt.</font>

  693
  00:35:46.365 --> 00:35:48.523 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist eine Verdreifachung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Eingezahlten des Arbeitnehmers.</font>

  694
  00:35:49.167 --> 00:35:51.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Vermögensverwaltung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kostet etwas. Sie hat ihren Preis.</font>

  695
  00:35:52.006 --> 00:35:54.083 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wichtig ist aber:</font>

  696
  00:35:54.725 --> 00:35:57.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gute Vermögensverwaltung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kostet etwas.</font>

  697
  00:35:57.764 --> 00:36:00.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wichtig ist doch,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was bei den Versicherten ankommt.</font>

  698
  00:36:00.804 --> 00:36:02.843 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Medici) Ob das Preis-Leistungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Verhältnis stimmt, ist wichtig.</font>

  699
  00:36:03.485 --> 00:36:05.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Bertschy) Genau,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Preis-Leistungs-Verhältnis.</font>

  700
  00:36:06.005 --> 00:36:07.843 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es stimmt, die Rendite</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist beim BVG besser als bei der AHV.</font>

  701
  00:36:08.484 --> 00:36:10.683 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch in der AHV ist die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Vermögensverwaltung nicht gratis.</font>

  702
  00:36:11.325 --> 00:36:13.923 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort bezahlen wir über Steuergelder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Beamte in Bundesbern,</font>

  703
  00:36:14.565 --> 00:36:16.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">die dieses Vermögen verwalten</font>

  704
  00:36:17.404 --> 00:36:20.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">und das Umlageverfahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">administrieren.</font>

  705
  00:36:20.765 --> 00:36:24.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Rendite ist entscheidend</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und sie ist gut.</font>

  706
  00:36:24.844 --> 00:36:27.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie kommt den Versicherten zugute.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort ist wichtig, dass die Leute,</font>

  707
  00:36:28.525 --> 00:36:30.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">die im Moment nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über eine Pensionskasse verfügen</font>

  708
  00:36:31.245 --> 00:36:33.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder über eine sehr kleine,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">endlich die Gelegenheit bekommen,</font>

  709
  00:36:34.124 --> 00:36:35.722 
  <font color="#ffffff">einzuzahlen.</font>

  710
  00:36:36.364 --> 00:36:38.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht noch ein letzter Punkt:</font>

  711
  00:36:38.685 --> 00:36:40.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Vermögensverwaltung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist nicht Teil dieser Vorlage.</font>

  712
  00:36:41.005 --> 00:36:42.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Medici) Eben nicht.</font>

  713
  00:36:43.285 --> 00:36:45.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist eine Nebelpetarde von eurer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Seite, das auf den Tisch zu bringen.</font>

  714
  00:36:46.405 --> 00:36:48.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">In dieser Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geht es um etwas anderes.</font>

  715
  00:36:48.646 --> 00:36:50.242 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie wollen nicht darüber reden,</font>

  716
  00:36:50.884 --> 00:36:52.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass Teilzeit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kleine Einkommen und Frauen</font>

  717
  00:36:53.124 --> 00:36:55.322 
  <font color="#ffffff">endlich besser versichert werden.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum geht es in dieser Vorlage.</font>

  718
  00:36:55.964 --> 00:36:58.323 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gut, Nebel wollen wir in</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">diesem Studio überhaupt nicht haben.</font>

  719
  00:36:58.965 --> 00:37:01.403 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir wollen rein leuchten und</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beleuchten und sagen, worum es geht.</font>

  720
  00:37:02.045 --> 00:37:05.603 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich spüre,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">es geht eigentlich schon darum,</font>

  721
  00:37:06.245 --> 00:37:07.965 
  <font color="#00ffff">wer am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von dieser Vorlage profitiert,</font>

  722
  00:37:08.607 --> 00:37:10.282 
  <font color="#00ffff">über die wir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">am 22. September abstimmen.</font>

  723
  00:37:10.924 --> 00:37:13.523 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die sog. BVG-Reform, die berufliche</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Vorsorge in der Pensionskasse.</font>

  724
  00:37:14.164 --> 00:37:16.203 
  <font color="#00ffff">In meinem Legomodell,</font>

  725
  00:37:16.844 --> 00:37:18.043 
  <font color="#00ffff">das ich höchstpersönlich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zusammengebastelt habe -</font>

  726
  00:37:18.685 --> 00:37:20.283 
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht, weil ich noch Lego</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu Hause hätte,</font>

  727
  00:37:20.925 --> 00:37:22.923 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern, weil ich sie bei uns</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus der Requisite geholt habe.</font>

  728
  00:37:23.565 --> 00:37:25.802 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es geht um diese zweite Säule.</font>

  729
  00:37:26.444 --> 00:37:28.722 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir wollen vertiefen, wem diese</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Reform tatsächlich etwas bringt.</font>

  730
  00:37:29.364 --> 00:37:31.202 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da sind wir gleich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beim springenden Punkt.</font>

  731
  00:37:31.844 --> 00:37:33.603 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist  n i c h t  so einfach</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu sagen,</font>

  732
  00:37:34.244 --> 00:37:35.683 
  <font color="#00ffff">wer am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von dieser Reform profitiert,</font>

  733
  00:37:36.325 --> 00:37:37.803 
  <font color="#00ffff">weil alles von</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">verschiedenen Faktoren abhängig ist.</font>

  734
  00:37:38.445 --> 00:37:40.483 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir schauen hin, wem diese Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zugutekommen soll und wem nicht.</font>

  735
  00:37:41.125 --> 00:37:43.522 
  <font color="#00ffff">In unserem Erklärvideo erfahren Sie,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">was für Auswirkungen jedes einzelne</font>

  736
  00:37:44.164 --> 00:37:46.722 
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser insgesamt fünf Elemente</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Reform hat.</font>

  737
  00:37:50.846 --> 00:37:54.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">Erstens: Senkung des</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Umwandlungssatzes von 6,8 auf 6 %.</font>

  738
  00:37:56.406 --> 00:37:58.683 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für max. ein Drittel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Versicherten</font>

  739
  00:37:59.325 --> 00:38:01.522 
  <font color="#ffffff">führt die Senkung laut Bund grund-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sätzlich zu einer tieferen Rente.</font>

  740
  00:38:02.725 --> 00:38:05.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ungefähr zwei Drittel der Versicher-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ten sind nicht direkt betroffen.</font>

  741
  00:38:06.606 --> 00:38:09.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">U.a., weil sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">überobligatorisch versichert sind.</font>

  742
  00:38:10.324 --> 00:38:12.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">D. h.:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Versicherte und ihre Arbeitgeber</font>

  743
  00:38:12.644 --> 00:38:15.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">bezahlen beispielsweise monatlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bereits mehr Geld ins BVG ein,</font>

  744
  00:38:15.645 --> 00:38:19.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">als das Gesetz vorschreibt.</font>

  745
  00:38:20.404 --> 00:38:21.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zweitens: Rentenzuschläge.</font>

  746
  00:38:22.607 --> 00:38:24.282 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie sind als Ausgleichsmassnahme</font>

  747
  00:38:24.924 --> 00:38:26.963 
  <font color="#ffffff">für eine Übergangsgeneration</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von 15 Jahrgängen vorgesehen.</font>

  748
  00:38:27.966 --> 00:38:30.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Rund 50 % erhalten einen Zuschlag</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von max. 200 Fr. pro Monat.</font>

  749
  00:38:32.766 --> 00:38:35.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">Finanziert werden die Renten-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zuschläge von den Pensionskassen</font>

  750
  00:38:36.284 --> 00:38:38.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">und von allen Versicherten.</font>

  751
  00:38:40.125 --> 00:38:43.602 
  <font color="#ffffff">Drittens: Anpassung der Alters-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gutschriften, der Lohnbeiträge also,</font>

  752
  00:38:44.244 --> 00:38:46.442 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Arbeitnehmer und Arbeitgeber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Pensionskasse einzahlen.</font>

  753
  00:38:48.206 --> 00:38:50.243 
  <font color="#ffffff">Laut Bund sind die Auswirkungen</font>

  754
  00:38:50.887 --> 00:38:53.402 
  <font color="#ffffff">stark abhängig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von der individuellen Situation.</font>

  755
  00:38:54.044 --> 00:38:55.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Viertens:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Anpassung des Koordinationsabzugs.</font>

  756
  00:38:57.085 --> 00:38:59.202 
  <font color="#ffffff">Von dieser Ausgleichsmassnahme</font>

  757
  00:38:59.844 --> 00:39:01.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">profitieren insbesondere Teilzeit-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Mehrfachangestellte,</font>

  758
  00:39:02.604 --> 00:39:04.843 
  <font color="#ffffff">sowie Personen mit tiefen Einkommen.</font>

  759
  00:39:05.485 --> 00:39:08.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil neu in jedem Fall 80 % des</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Lohns im BVG versichert sind,</font>

  760
  00:39:09.364 --> 00:39:11.882 
  <font color="#ffffff">können sie mehr fürs Alter ansparen.</font>

  761
  00:39:12.525 --> 00:39:15.842 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem führt die Anpassung u.U.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu höheren Lohnabzügen.</font>

  762
  00:39:17.766 --> 00:39:20.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">Fünftens: tiefere Eintrittsschwelle.</font>

  763
  00:39:21.485 --> 00:39:24.882 
  <font color="#ffffff">Davon profitieren in erster Linie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeit- und Mehrfachangestellte,</font>

  764
  00:39:25.524 --> 00:39:27.492 
  <font color="#ffffff">sowie Personen mit tiefen Einkommen.</font>

  765
  00:39:28.133 --> 00:39:30.002 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schätzungsweise 100'000 Personen</font>

  766
  00:39:30.644 --> 00:39:32.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">wären laut Bund</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neu oder besser versichert.</font>

  767
  00:39:33.404 --> 00:39:35.562 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem führt die Massnahme</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Regel zu höheren Lohnabzügen.</font>

  768
  00:39:38.565 --> 00:39:40.962 
  <font color="#00ffff">Hier haben wir auch eine Zahl</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit einigen Nullen.</font>

  769
  00:39:41.604 --> 00:39:43.123 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sieht doch gut aus,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Samira Marti.</font>

  770
  00:39:43.765 --> 00:39:45.574 
  <font color="#00ffff">100'000 Personen werden neu</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder besser versichert.</font>

  771
  00:39:46.213 --> 00:39:47.732 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist doch ein Fortschritt.</font>

  772
  00:39:48.374 --> 00:39:50.002 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist eben die Frage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man die Rechnung macht,</font>

  773
  00:39:50.644 --> 00:39:52.242 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob man profitiert oder nicht.</font>

  774
  00:39:52.884 --> 00:39:54.402 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, es gibt Verbesserungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für Teilzeit,</font>

  775
  00:39:55.044 --> 00:39:57.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frauen sind insbesondere betroffen.</font>

  776
  00:39:57.925 --> 00:40:00.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind minimale Verbesserungen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die man seit Jahrzehnten kämpft.</font>

  777
  00:40:00.765 --> 00:40:02.723 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind die letzten Teile.</font>

  778
  00:40:03.364 --> 00:40:05.732 
  <font color="#ffffff">Eine tiefere Eintrittsschwelle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der prozentuale Koordinationsabzug,</font>

  779
  00:40:06.373 --> 00:40:08.002 
  <font color="#ffffff">wobei man dort auch sagen muss,</font>

  780
  00:40:08.646 --> 00:40:13.722 
  <font color="#ffffff">90 % der Kassen haben bereits heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen flexiblen Koordinationsabzug.</font>

  781
  00:40:14.367 --> 00:40:16.242 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch dort merken wir,</font>

  782
  00:40:16.884 --> 00:40:18.932 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht merklich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu besseren Frauenrenten führt.</font>

  783
  00:40:19.574 --> 00:40:22.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">Andererseits steht eben diese Sen-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kung des Umwandlungssatzes im Raum.</font>

  784
  00:40:23.094 --> 00:40:26.602 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das führt dazu, dass gerade Menschen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit tieferen Löhnen,</font>

  785
  00:40:27.244 --> 00:40:29.082 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit mittleren Löhnen,</font>

  786
  00:40:29.724 --> 00:40:32.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">die vielleicht 10, 15 oder 20 Jahre</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vor dem Pensionsalter sind,</font>

  787
  00:40:32.683 --> 00:40:34.682 
  <font color="#ffffff">also mitten im Erwerbsleben stehen,</font>

  788
  00:40:35.324 --> 00:40:37.412 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie einerseits</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch diese Massnahmen</font>

  789
  00:40:38.054 --> 00:40:39.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">deutlich mehr Lohnbeiträge</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zahlen müssen.</font>

  790
  00:40:40.604 --> 00:40:43.172 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir reden von 100-150 Fr. pro Monat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die fehlen -</font>

  791
  00:40:43.814 --> 00:40:45.562 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei einem Einkommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das sowieso schon tief ist.</font>

  792
  00:40:46.204 --> 00:40:48.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber es führt nicht automatisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu höheren Renten - im Gegenteil.</font>

  793
  00:40:49.286 --> 00:40:51.682 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für gewisse führt es sogar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu massiven Senkungen.</font>

  794
  00:40:52.324 --> 00:40:54.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein konkretes Beispiel nennen,</font>

  795
  00:40:54.933 --> 00:40:56.612 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil es ausserordentlich ist.</font>

  796
  00:40:57.253 --> 00:40:59.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Pensionskassen veröffentlichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">normalerweise keine Zahlen.</font>

  797
  00:41:00.414 --> 00:41:04.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">Proparis, die Gewerbekasse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit 70'000 Versicherten,</font>

  798
  00:41:05.604 --> 00:41:08.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat vor einigen Wochen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Zahlen veröffentlicht.</font>

  799
  00:41:09.004 --> 00:41:10.682 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wahrscheinlich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie so schockiert sind,</font>

  800
  00:41:11.324 --> 00:41:13.572 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie schlecht es mit dieser Reform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für ihre Leute aussehen wird.</font>

  801
  00:41:14.217 --> 00:41:17.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie zeigten, dass es z.B. bei</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Coiffeusen, Kosmetikerinnen über 50</font>

  802
  00:41:17.686 --> 00:41:21.202 
  <font color="#ffffff">für bis zu 80 % von ihnen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu massiven Kürzungen führen wird.</font>

  803
  00:41:21.850 --> 00:41:23.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis zu einem Drittel weniger Rente.</font>

  804
  00:41:24.284 --> 00:41:26.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da reden wir sowieso schon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von ziemlich wenig Geld.</font>

  805
  00:41:27.004 --> 00:41:28.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das zeigt, dass man nicht einfach</font>

  806
  00:41:29.613 --> 00:41:32.372 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine von fünf Massnahmen rauspicken</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kann und sie "super" nennen kann.</font>

  807
  00:41:33.014 --> 00:41:35.402 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann vergisst man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Blick fürs Ganze.</font>

  808
  00:41:36.044 --> 00:41:37.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss alles zusammenrechnen.</font>

  809
  00:41:38.404 --> 00:41:40.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">Am Schluss macht man einen Strich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann kommt der Betrag</font>

  810
  00:41:41.004 --> 00:41:43.202 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Franken und Rappen, was</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen das kostet und was es bringt.</font>

  811
  00:41:43.844 --> 00:41:45.682 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hier profitiert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine grosse Mehrheit nicht.</font>

  812
  00:41:46.324 --> 00:41:47.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Gegenteil,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für eine grosse Mehrheit</font>

  813
  00:41:48.613 --> 00:41:50.652 
  <font color="#ffffff">führt das zu tieferen Renten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für mehr Geld.</font>

  814
  00:41:51.293 --> 00:41:53.082 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie wollen sich melden,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Bertschy.</font>

  815
  00:41:53.723 --> 00:41:55.802 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was machen wir jetzt?</font>

  816
  00:41:56.444 --> 00:41:58.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte gerne etwas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu diesem proparis-Beispiel sagen.</font>

  817
  00:41:59.604 --> 00:42:01.805 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann übergebe ich selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Wort an meine Kollegin.</font>

  818
  00:42:02.444 --> 00:42:04.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie bedienen sich wieder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines Beispiels</font>

  819
  00:42:05.493 --> 00:42:07.412 
  <font color="#ffffff">von nicht-öffentlichen Zahlen</font>

  820
  00:42:08.053 --> 00:42:10.172 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit nicht-öffentlichen Beurteilungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einer einzelnen Kasse.</font>

  821
  00:42:10.814 --> 00:42:13.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Berechnungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind nicht überprüfbar.</font>

  822
  00:42:13.764 --> 00:42:15.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">Einzelne Kassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind nicht repräsentativ.</font>

  823
  00:42:16.284 --> 00:42:19.522 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann andere Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Hand nehmen wie z.B. die Migros,</font>

  824
  00:42:20.164 --> 00:42:22.212 
  <font color="#ffffff">die aufzeigt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass kaum jemand betroffen ist.</font>

  825
  00:42:22.853 --> 00:42:24.732 
  <font color="#ffffff">Oder die Pensionskasse Basel-Stadt,</font>

  826
  00:42:25.374 --> 00:42:28.082 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wegen einer Anfrage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Grossen Rat veröffentlicht hat.</font>

  827
  00:42:28.724 --> 00:42:29.932 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort sieht man z.B. ...</font>

  828
  00:42:30.574 --> 00:42:32.122 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darf ich kurz eingreifen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">es gibt 1'400 Pensionskassen.</font>

  829
  00:42:32.764 --> 00:42:34.082 
  <font color="#00ffff">Z.B. die Migros-Pensionskasse.</font>

  830
  00:42:34.724 --> 00:42:35.922 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das wollen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">jetzt wahrscheinlich sagen.</font>

  831
  00:42:36.564 --> 00:42:37.722 
  <font color="#00ffff">Von diesen 51'000 Versicherten ...</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- ... sind weniger als 20?</font>

  832
  00:42:38.364 --> 00:42:39.611 
  <font color="#00ffff">... sind gerade einmal</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">23 Personen betroffen.</font>

  833
  00:42:40.253 --> 00:42:41.492 
  <font color="#ffffff">23 Personen.</font>

  834
  00:42:42.133 --> 00:42:43.652 
  <font color="#ffffff">In Basel-Stadt sind vier Personen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">negativ betroffen.</font>

  835
  00:42:44.293 --> 00:42:45.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mehrere Hundert sind neu versichert.</font>

  836
  00:42:46.333 --> 00:42:48.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Zahlen, die Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vorhin zeigten, diese 100'000,</font>

  837
  00:42:49.323 --> 00:42:51.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">die neu Zugang haben zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einem privilegierten Vorsorgesparen,</font>

  838
  00:42:52.403 --> 00:42:54.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">deren Familie eine Versicherung hat.</font>

  839
  00:42:54.804 --> 00:42:56.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei Schicksalsschlägen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei IV, bei Todesfällen.</font>

  840
  00:42:57.173 --> 00:42:58.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann gibt es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch Tausende von Leuten,</font>

  841
  00:42:59.493 --> 00:43:00.931 
  <font color="#ffffff">die von diesen Rentenzuschlägen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">profitieren.</font>

  842
  00:43:01.574 --> 00:43:03.775 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist immer die Frage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">welche Pensionskassen man anschaut.</font>

  843
  00:43:04.416 --> 00:43:06.212 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Gesamtbild ist wichtig.</font>

  844
  00:43:06.854 --> 00:43:09.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir noch einmal auf</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Gesamtbild zurückkommen könnten.</font>

  845
  00:43:09.684 --> 00:43:11.522 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deutlich mehr Personen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die eine höhere Rente bekommen.</font>

  846
  00:43:12.164 --> 00:43:15.652 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade mit diesen Biografien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">versichert man Frauen,</font>

  847
  00:43:16.295 --> 00:43:18.171 
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeitarbeitende</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und kleine Einkommen besser.</font>

  848
  00:43:18.813 --> 00:43:21.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man einen grösseren Anteil</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Lohns einzahlt,</font>

  849
  00:43:22.493 --> 00:43:24.372 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat man auch eine höhere Rente.</font>

  850
  00:43:26.645 --> 00:43:28.842 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Barandun versprochen,</font>

  851
  00:43:29.484 --> 00:43:31.162 
  <font color="#00ffff">ich habe aber nicht vergessen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass Sie vorhin lachten, Frau Medici</font>

  852
  00:43:31.804 --> 00:43:33.251 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich frage gleich, warum.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Ist gut.</font>

  853
  00:43:33.893 --> 00:43:35.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte etwas aufnehmen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was Frau Bertschy erwähnt hat,</font>

  854
  00:43:36.253 --> 00:43:37.931 
  <font color="#ffffff">was bis jetzt zu kurz gekommen ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und nicht erwähnt wurde.</font>

  855
  00:43:38.573 --> 00:43:39.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Oder nur am Rande.</font>

  856
  00:43:40.493 --> 00:43:42.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">All jene, die neu versichert werden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die vorher nicht versichert waren,</font>

  857
  00:43:43.094 --> 00:43:44.842 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben jetzt nicht nur die Chance,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sich eine Rente aufzubauen,</font>

  858
  00:43:45.485 --> 00:43:48.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern sind per sofort auch gegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Tod und Invalidität versichert.</font>

  859
  00:43:49.495 --> 00:43:51.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube, auch das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine Errungenschaft,</font>

  860
  00:43:52.533 --> 00:43:54.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der man sagen muss, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das wichtig für diese Leute ist.</font>

  861
  00:43:55.533 --> 00:43:57.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade auch im Tieflohnbereich,</font>

  862
  00:43:58.093 --> 00:44:00.012 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass hier ein gewisser Schutz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Familien besteht.</font>

  863
  00:44:00.653 --> 00:44:02.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man redet immer nur von den Frauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich möchte auch sagen,</font>

  864
  00:44:03.334 --> 00:44:05.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">zunehmend sind auch Männer, die sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an der Familienarbeit beteiligen ...</font>

  865
  00:44:06.404 --> 00:44:09.491 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Ehepartner teilen sich oder die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Familie teilt sich die Arbeit auf.</font>

  866
  00:44:10.134 --> 00:44:12.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann betrifft es beide.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kumuliert sich das.</font>

  867
  00:44:13.096 --> 00:44:15.372 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deswegen ist das ganz wichtig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Zukunft, das hinzukriegen.</font>

  868
  00:44:16.013 --> 00:44:17.922 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass wir schauen, wohin wir wollen.</font>

  869
  00:44:18.563 --> 00:44:21.132 
  <font color="#ffffff">Am Schluss dient diese Senkung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Umwandlungssatzes dazu,</font>

  870
  00:44:21.773 --> 00:44:23.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Rente wirklich zu sichern.</font>

  871
  00:44:24.124 --> 00:44:26.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das muss unser aller Ziel sein,</font>

  872
  00:44:27.093 --> 00:44:29.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Renten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die jetzt nicht angetastet werden,</font>

  873
  00:44:30.613 --> 00:44:32.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber auch diejenige der Zukunft,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu sichern.</font>

  874
  00:44:33.094 --> 00:44:34.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie fragen, warum ich gelacht habe.</font>

  875
  00:44:35.494 --> 00:44:39.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Baume-Schneider hat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Kampagne am Montag lanciert.</font>

  876
  00:44:40.494 --> 00:44:45.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie sagte: "Wir wissen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was die Auswirkungen im Gesetz sind,</font>

  877
  00:44:45.733 --> 00:44:47.171 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die sind dramatisch."</font>

  878
  00:44:47.814 --> 00:44:50.931 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Regel kommt dann:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">"Ja, aber das ist nicht so schlimm,</font>

  879
  00:44:51.573 --> 00:44:53.052 
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist ja niemand betroffen,</font>

  880
  00:44:53.697 --> 00:44:55.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben wir alle einen Grundsockel."</font>

  881
  00:44:56.494 --> 00:44:58.282 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die von Ihnen, die schon einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Pensionskassenausweis haben,</font>

  882
  00:44:58.924 --> 00:45:00.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">kriegen den einmal jährlich.</font>

  883
  00:45:01.053 --> 00:45:03.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schauen Sie den an,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dort steht das Gesamtguthaben.</font>

  884
  00:45:03.733 --> 00:45:05.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es steht aber auch, wie viel davon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch das Gesetz geschützt ist.</font>

  885
  00:45:06.454 --> 00:45:08.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei diesem Teil wissen wir,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was passiert.</font>

  886
  00:45:08.893 --> 00:45:11.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann sagte Frau Baume-Schneider</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas Interessantes:</font>

  887
  00:45:12.174 --> 00:45:14.172 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Bei den anderen Sachen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wissen wir es nicht genau,</font>

  888
  00:45:14.817 --> 00:45:16.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">fragen Sie Ihre Pensionskassen."</font>

  889
  00:45:17.093 --> 00:45:19.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Proparis, die Gewerbskasse,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat genau das gemacht.</font>

  890
  00:45:20.173 --> 00:45:22.651 
  <font color="#ffffff">Pensionskassenexperten haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im letzten Jahr überall gemacht.</font>

  891
  00:45:23.293 --> 00:45:24.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie haben geschaut, was passiert.</font>

  892
  00:45:25.413 --> 00:45:27.652 
  <font color="#ffffff">Samira Marti sagte zuvor,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was bei den Coiffeusen passiert.</font>

  893
  00:45:28.293 --> 00:45:31.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Über 80 % der 55-Jährigen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben Rentensenkungen.</font>

  894
  00:45:31.764 --> 00:45:34.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was sie nicht sagte:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Arbeitgeber und Arbeitnehmer</font>

  895
  00:45:34.892 --> 00:45:37.011 
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen dafür +3 % Lohnbeiträge</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zahlen,</font>

  896
  00:45:37.653 --> 00:45:39.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">obwohl es nachher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schlechtere Renten sind.</font>

  897
  00:45:40.413 --> 00:45:42.931 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist jetzt unsere Aufgabe:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aufzeigen, was passiert,</font>

  898
  00:45:43.574 --> 00:45:46.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">selbst wenn es nur</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Drittel der Versicherten wären,</font>

  899
  00:45:46.894 --> 00:45:51.092 
  <font color="#ffffff">den der Umwandlungssatz direkt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">betrifft, wie der Bundesrat sagt.</font>

  900
  00:45:51.735 --> 00:45:54.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Drittel der Versicherten in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz sind 1,5 Mio. Menschen.</font>

  901
  00:45:55.333 --> 00:46:00.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gärtner, Floristinnen, Coiffeusen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Becker, Metzger.</font>

  902
  00:46:01.253 --> 00:46:06.322 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau die sind brutal betroffen mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser Reform von Rentensenkungen.</font>

  903
  00:46:06.964 --> 00:46:08.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das haben sie nicht verdient.</font>

  904
  00:46:09.412 --> 00:46:10.931 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben etwas gesagt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und aufgenommen,</font>

  905
  00:46:11.573 --> 00:46:13.211 
  <font color="#00ffff">bei dem ich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">etwas stutzig geworden bin.</font>

  906
  00:46:13.853 --> 00:46:16.291 
  <font color="#00ffff">Als man Bundesrätin Baume-Schneider</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gefragt hat, wie man vorgehen solle,</font>

  907
  00:46:16.933 --> 00:46:20.491 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn man selbst herausfinden</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder realisieren will,</font>

  908
  00:46:21.133 --> 00:46:23.931 
  <font color="#00ffff">was diese Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für einen selbst bedeutet.</font>

  909
  00:46:24.573 --> 00:46:26.091 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war die Antwort:</font>

  910
  00:46:26.733 --> 00:46:28.771 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich würde allen raten, sich bei</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ihrer Pensionskassen zu erkunden,</font>

  911
  00:46:29.413 --> 00:46:31.851 
  <font color="#ffff00">wie die Situation aussieht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und wie sie sich entwickeln wird.</font>

  912
  00:46:32.493 --> 00:46:35.731 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich muss trotzdem sagen:</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist so eine komplexe Geschichte.</font>

  913
  00:46:36.373 --> 00:46:41.412 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind Expertinnen, wir als</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Redaktion haben uns auch informiert.</font>

  914
  00:46:42.054 --> 00:46:44.211 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber wenn ich jetzt an die jungen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Menschen hier im Studio denke,</font>

  915
  00:46:44.853 --> 00:46:48.691 
  <font color="#00ffff">an die Stimmbürger/-innen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">denen man wahnsinnig viel zumutet.</font>

  916
  00:46:49.333 --> 00:46:51.931 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und jetzt soll man auch noch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">selber die Pensionskasse fragen,</font>

  917
  00:46:52.575 --> 00:46:54.051 
  <font color="#00ffff">was es schlussendlich bedeutet.</font>

  918
  00:46:54.693 --> 00:46:56.131 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da braucht es doch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">eine Art BVG-Rechner,</font>

  919
  00:46:56.773 --> 00:46:59.012 
  <font color="#00ffff">wo man mit ein paar Klicks heraus-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">findet, was das für einen bedeutet.</font>

  920
  00:46:59.653 --> 00:47:01.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das System</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist dem Umstand geschuldet,</font>

  921
  00:47:02.532 --> 00:47:04.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass jeder seine eigene Kasse hat,</font>

  922
  00:47:05.053 --> 00:47:08.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo er und sein Arbeitgeber einzahlt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und auf dem Rendite gemacht werden.</font>

  923
  00:47:09.094 --> 00:47:12.931 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Regel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man auch voraussagen,</font>

  924
  00:47:13.575 --> 00:47:15.052 
  <font color="#ffffff">was in den nächsten Jahren passiert.</font>

  925
  00:47:15.693 --> 00:47:17.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber glücklicherweise bietet</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Pensionskassen den Service,</font>

  926
  00:47:18.173 --> 00:47:21.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch abgesehen von dieser Revision,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">allen Versicherten.</font>

  927
  00:47:22.013 --> 00:47:24.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der Pensionskasse vorbeigehen.</font>

  928
  00:47:25.173 --> 00:47:28.291 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich will all den Jungen hier drin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagen: Es empfiehlt sich sowieso,</font>

  929
  00:47:28.933 --> 00:47:32.291 
  <font color="#ffffff">ganz früh anzufangen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sich damit auseinanderzusetzen.</font>

  930
  00:47:32.934 --> 00:47:36.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Herauszufinden, wie viel man auch in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der dritten Säule ansparen müsste,</font>

  931
  00:47:36.893 --> 00:47:39.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit es wirklich ein Paket gibt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das gut für einen ist.</font>

  932
  00:47:40.013 --> 00:47:41.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist sehr wichtig,</font>

  933
  00:47:42.173 --> 00:47:44.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das ist der Individualität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der zweiten Säule geschuldet.</font>

  934
  00:47:45.413 --> 00:47:47.931 
  <font color="#00ffff">Reicht das, der Kontakt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit der eigenen Pensionskasse?</font>

  935
  00:47:48.573 --> 00:47:50.651 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das andere wäre schon optimaler,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Bertschy, oder?</font>

  936
  00:47:51.293 --> 00:47:53.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt gesicherte Daten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gesicherte Aussagen des Bundesrats,</font>

  937
  00:47:54.612 --> 00:47:58.051 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit 100'000 Einkommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">70'000 Personen</font>

  938
  00:47:58.692 --> 00:48:01.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">werden durch die Senkung der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Eintrittsschwelle neu versichert,</font>

  939
  00:48:02.013 --> 00:48:04.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben Zugang zu diesem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">privilegierten Vorsorge-Sparen.</font>

  940
  00:48:05.053 --> 00:48:07.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">So können sie sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gute Altersrente ansparen.</font>

  941
  00:48:08.173 --> 00:48:11.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und unmittelbar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nach Inkrafttreten dieser Vorlage</font>

  942
  00:48:12.372 --> 00:48:14.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind sie versichert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen IV und Todesfall.</font>

  943
  00:48:15.333 --> 00:48:18.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihre Familie jetzt besser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abgesichert bei Schicksalsschlägen.</font>

  944
  00:48:19.053 --> 00:48:21.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist sehr wichtig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für tiefe Einkommen.</font>

  945
  00:48:22.333 --> 00:48:24.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die zweite gesicherte Zahl</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommt trotzdem aus dieser Studie,</font>

  946
  00:48:25.493 --> 00:48:27.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">die eine repräsentative Datenlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anschaut.</font>

  947
  00:48:28.253 --> 00:48:29.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann sich darüber streiten,</font>

  948
  00:48:30.372 --> 00:48:32.131 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Verantwortung gewesen wäre,</font>

  949
  00:48:32.772 --> 00:48:34.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Studie und die Quantifizierung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser Beispiele vorzunehmen.</font>

  950
  00:48:35.493 --> 00:48:37.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht passiert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">seitens Bundesamt.</font>

  951
  00:48:38.453 --> 00:48:40.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau darum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machten wir das bei der Aliance,</font>

  952
  00:48:40.733 --> 00:48:44.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir aufgrund von Fakten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und repräsentativen Daten</font>

  953
  00:48:45.613 --> 00:48:47.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">beurteilen wollten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht aufgrund von Einzelbeispielen.</font>

  954
  00:48:48.332 --> 00:48:50.051 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum haben wir diese Studie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Auftrag gegeben.</font>

  955
  00:48:50.693 --> 00:48:53.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie zeigt, dass 359'000 Personen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch die BVG-Reform</font>

  956
  00:48:54.173 --> 00:48:58.651 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine höhere Rente erhalten.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rund 275'000 davon sind Frauen.</font>

  957
  00:48:59.293 --> 00:49:02.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es profitieren insbesondere</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diejenigen, die profitieren sollen:</font>

  958
  00:49:03.459 --> 00:49:06.291 
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeit- und Mehrfachbeschäftigte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kleine Einkommen.</font>

  959
  00:49:06.932 --> 00:49:09.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und es sind viermal mehr Frauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die profitieren,</font>

  960
  00:49:09.853 --> 00:49:11.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">als Frauen, die weniger erhalten.</font>

  961
  00:49:12.333 --> 00:49:14.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">Doppelt so viele Leute erhalten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine höhere Rente hat eine kleinere.</font>

  962
  00:49:15.093 --> 00:49:19.131 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Gesamtbild muss man beurtei-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">len bei dieser Abstimmungsvorlage.</font>

  963
  00:49:19.773 --> 00:49:25.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass wir das BVG modernisieren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen, wenn man es erhalten will,</font>

  964
  00:49:26.452 --> 00:49:27.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist uns allen bewusst.</font>

  965
  00:49:28.532 --> 00:49:29.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt Kreise,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die das BVG nicht erhalten wollen,</font>

  966
  00:49:30.612 --> 00:49:33.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie einen anderen Plan haben:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Volkspension einführen.</font>

  967
  00:49:33.733 --> 00:49:36.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann ist es möglicherweise</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch naheliegend,</font>

  968
  00:49:37.253 --> 00:49:39.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man gar nicht will,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das BVG funktioniert</font>

  969
  00:49:39.733 --> 00:49:42.571 
  <font color="#ffffff">für Teilzeit oder kleine Einkommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weil man nicht den Plan hat,</font>

  970
  00:49:43.212 --> 00:49:45.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Säule für alle beiträgt.</font>

  971
  00:49:46.253 --> 00:49:49.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man will sie zum Einsturz bringen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und in eine Volkspension umwandeln.</font>

  972
  00:49:50.053 --> 00:49:53.571 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wird uns natürlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">immer vorgeworfen,</font>

  973
  00:49:54.214 --> 00:49:55.970 
  <font color="#ffffff">darauf gehe ich nicht ein.</font>

  974
  00:49:56.612 --> 00:49:59.410 
  <font color="#00ffff">Also ist es falsch?</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Natürlich ist das falsch.</font>

  975
  00:50:00.052 --> 00:50:02.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Parlament setzen wir uns</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die ganze Zeit dafür ein,</font>

  976
  00:50:02.652 --> 00:50:04.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Versicherten in der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beruflichen Vorsorge besser ...</font>

  977
  00:50:05.413 --> 00:50:06.851 
  <font color="#00ffff">Also, sie hat das gesagt.</font>

  978
  00:50:07.493 --> 00:50:09.015 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Bertschy) Cedric Wermuth</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat das gesagt, nicht ich.</font>

  979
  00:50:09.652 --> 00:50:11.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Marti) Nein, aber das höre ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schon zum dritten Mal.</font>

  980
  00:50:11.853 --> 00:50:13.171 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe das nie gesagt.</font>

  981
  00:50:13.813 --> 00:50:15.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann muss mir jetzt auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine Zitate von älteren Herren,</font>

  982
  00:50:16.052 --> 00:50:18.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">sei es von der Gewerkschaft oder von</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">meiner Partei, in den Mund legen.</font>

  983
  00:50:18.692 --> 00:50:20.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte, dass die Leute in der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zweiten Säule gut versichert sind</font>

  984
  00:50:21.452 --> 00:50:22.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dass sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine anständige Rente erhalten,</font>

  985
  00:50:23.613 --> 00:50:25.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es in der Verfassung auch steht,</font>

  986
  00:50:25.733 --> 00:50:27.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">sodass man den Lebensstandard</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erhalten kann.</font>

  987
  00:50:27.893 --> 00:50:29.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das garantiert die zweite Säule</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">je länger je mehr nicht mehr.</font>

  988
  00:50:30.413 --> 00:50:31.890 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum braucht es dringend</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Verbesserungen.</font>

  989
  00:50:32.532 --> 00:50:36.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Vorlage macht das Gegenteil.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie führt zu tieferen Renten.</font>

  990
  00:50:37.172 --> 00:50:39.331 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist diese Schattenrechnung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Frau Medici genannt hat,</font>

  991
  00:50:39.973 --> 00:50:41.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wir alle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf unserem Auszug haben.</font>

  992
  00:50:42.493 --> 00:50:45.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist garantiert, das verspricht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Gesetz. Und das wird weniger.</font>

  993
  00:50:45.853 --> 00:50:47.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte noch einmal</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die Zahlen zurückkommen.</font>

  994
  00:50:48.533 --> 00:50:54.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">70'000 sind besser versichert,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">30'000 sind neu versichert.</font>

  995
  00:50:55.372 --> 00:50:58.011 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neu versichert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heisst nicht eine bessere Rente.</font>

  996
  00:50:58.653 --> 00:51:01.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">In erster Linie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heisst das höhere Kosten.</font>

  997
  00:51:01.893 --> 00:51:04.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber was dann dabei rausschaut,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die zweite Frage.</font>

  998
  00:51:04.854 --> 00:51:07.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Kommission haben wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vom Bundesrat eine Tabelle erhalten,</font>

  999
  00:51:07.812 --> 00:51:11.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der schöne Beispiele stehen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Tabelle ist öffentlich.</font>

  1000
  00:51:11.972 --> 00:51:14.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man weiss natürlich nicht von jeder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Person, wie sie versichert ist,</font>

  1001
  00:51:15.493 --> 00:51:18.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber man kann mit diesen Zahlen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vom Bundesrat arbeiten.</font>

  1002
  00:51:19.013 --> 00:51:24.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da ist die 50-jährige Frau,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie verdient 4'500 Fr. pro Monat.</font>

  1003
  00:51:24.732 --> 00:51:28.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie bezahlt in Zukunft mit dieser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Reform monatlich 147 Fr. mehr.</font>

  1004
  00:51:29.252 --> 00:51:32.051 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Geld fehlt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei einem Einkommen von 4'500 Fr.</font>

  1005
  00:51:32.693 --> 00:51:34.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie erhält dafür</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">8 Fr. weniger Rente.</font>

  1006
  00:51:35.413 --> 00:51:37.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen des Koordinationsabzugs,</font>

  1007
  00:51:38.375 --> 00:51:40.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie weniger Rente erhält,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">da sind wir uns ja einig.</font>

  1008
  00:51:40.733 --> 00:51:42.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen dieses Umwandlungssatzes.</font>

  1009
  00:51:42.812 --> 00:51:45.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind einen Punkt weitergekommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit dieser Abstimmungsvorlage:</font>

  1010
  00:51:45.812 --> 00:51:49.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass auch die bürgerlichen Parteien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jetzt offenbar unisono</font>

  1011
  00:51:49.732 --> 00:51:52.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">hinter den Modernisierungsschritten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Frauen stehen.</font>

  1012
  00:51:52.893 --> 00:51:55.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber es braucht die Senkung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Umwandlungssatzes nicht mehr.</font>

  1013
  00:51:56.533 --> 00:51:59.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jede Person aus der Praxis,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Branche sagt,</font>

  1014
  00:51:59.932 --> 00:52:02.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Tiefzinszeit sei vorbei.</font>

  1015
  00:52:02.652 --> 00:52:04.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die garantierten Renten zu senken</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in einer Zeit,</font>

  1016
  00:52:05.372 --> 00:52:09.374 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der die Zinsen und Preise</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">steigen, ist aus der Zeit gefallen.</font>

  1017
  00:52:10.013 --> 00:52:12.334 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn die Modernisierungselemente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf bürgerlicher Seite</font>

  1018
  00:52:12.972 --> 00:52:14.571 
  <font color="#ffffff">doch so unbestritten sind -</font>

  1019
  00:52:15.213 --> 00:52:17.370 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir stehen seit Jahrzehnten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für sie ein -, machen wir sie doch.</font>

  1020
  00:52:18.012 --> 00:52:19.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür müssen wir sie nicht</font>

  1021
  00:52:19.932 --> 00:52:21.690 
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammen mit einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">allgemeinen Leistungsabbau machen.</font>

  1022
  00:52:22.332 --> 00:52:24.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch ein letzter Satz:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, es gibt Leute, die profitieren.</font>

  1023
  00:52:24.692 --> 00:52:26.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind 20-jährige Frauen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus dem Tieflohnsektor,</font>

  1024
  00:52:27.532 --> 00:52:29.131 
  <font color="#ffffff">die monatlich 3'000 Fr. verdienen.</font>

  1025
  00:52:29.773 --> 00:52:31.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte nicht, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die 20-jährigen Frauen von heute</font>

  1026
  00:52:32.334 --> 00:52:34.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">ihr Leben lang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Lohn von 3'000 Fr. haben.</font>

  1027
  00:52:35.412 --> 00:52:38.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür setzen wir uns zusammen ein -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es bessere Kita-Plätze gibt,</font>

  1028
  00:52:38.852 --> 00:52:41.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Vereinbarkeit stärken kann,</font>

  1029
  00:52:41.652 --> 00:52:43.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Betreuungsarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">fairer verteilt wird</font>

  1030
  00:52:43.932 --> 00:52:45.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">zwischen Mann und Frau.</font>

  1031
  00:52:45.932 --> 00:52:47.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für die 20-jährige Frauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">evtl. in 40 Jahren,</font>

  1032
  00:52:48.012 --> 00:52:49.414 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine etwas bessere Rente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">herauszuholen</font>

  1033
  00:52:50.055 --> 00:52:51.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dafür eine ganze Generation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu vernachlässigen -</font>

  1034
  00:52:52.172 --> 00:52:54.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">die ganze verlorene Generation,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die weder Fisch noch Vogel hatte -,</font>

  1035
  00:52:55.052 --> 00:52:56.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">das geht nicht.</font>

  1036
  00:52:57.172 --> 00:52:59.810 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich will den Blick noch einmal</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aufs Gesamtbild lenken.</font>

  1037
  00:53:00.452 --> 00:53:04.533 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben eine Vorlage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die viele Anliegen beinhaltet,</font>

  1038
  00:53:05.172 --> 00:53:07.011 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wir schon seit vielen Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alle teilen,</font>

  1039
  00:53:07.653 --> 00:53:09.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">die jetzt erfüllt werden.</font>

  1040
  00:53:09.692 --> 00:53:11.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht nicht in jedem Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">genau so,</font>

  1041
  00:53:11.812 --> 00:53:13.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es jede Partei gerne hätte.</font>

  1042
  00:53:13.972 --> 00:53:16.890 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich glaube, wir sind alle einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schritt aufeinander zugekommen.</font>

  1043
  00:53:17.532 --> 00:53:19.810 
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweizerischer Kompromiss - den</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">haben wir zu Beginn schon genannt.</font>

  1044
  00:53:20.452 --> 00:53:21.810 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, so funktioniert die Politik.</font>

  1045
  00:53:22.452 --> 00:53:24.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich will noch etwas sagen:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Seit Jahren diskutieren wir darüber,</font>

  1046
  00:53:25.173 --> 00:53:27.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die älteren Arbeitnehmer auf</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dem Arbeitsmarkt benachteiligt sind,</font>

  1047
  00:53:27.972 --> 00:53:30.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie höhere Einzahlungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Pensionskasse machen müssen,</font>

  1048
  00:53:30.652 --> 00:53:32.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">entsprechend auch ihre Arbeitgeber.</font>

  1049
  00:53:32.812 --> 00:53:34.690 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum hätten sie Schwierigkeiten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine neue Stelle zu finden.</font>

  1050
  00:53:35.332 --> 00:53:38.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Anliegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wird jetzt auch endlich aufgenommen.</font>

  1051
  00:53:39.291 --> 00:53:40.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alles wieder über den Haufen werfen,</font>

  1052
  00:53:41.492 --> 00:53:42.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind wir auch da wieder auf Feld 1.</font>

  1053
  00:53:43.613 --> 00:53:45.370 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich halte den Kompromiss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für ausgewogen.</font>

  1054
  00:53:46.012 --> 00:53:48.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade in diesem Punkt bringt er</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">älteren Arbeitnehmern sehr viel.</font>

  1055
  00:53:49.052 --> 00:53:50.610 
  <font color="#00ffff">Machen wir doch den Reality-Check</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei Ihnen.</font>

  1056
  00:53:51.252 --> 00:53:54.890 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind auch Präsidentin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vom Gewerbeverband der Stadt Zürich.</font>

  1057
  00:53:55.532 --> 00:53:58.050 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie können nun</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein Bekenntnis ablegen,</font>

  1058
  00:53:58.693 --> 00:54:00.770 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass Ihre Mitglieder in Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei einem Ja zu dieser BVG-Reform</font>

  1059
  00:54:01.412 --> 00:54:04.370 
  <font color="#00ffff">einen besonderen Blick auf</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ältere Arbeitnehmende legen werden.</font>

  1060
  00:54:05.012 --> 00:54:06.890 
  <font color="#ffffff">Meine Mitglieder in der Stadt Zürich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen schon lange</font>

  1061
  00:54:07.531 --> 00:54:09.490 
  <font color="#ffffff">einen besonderen Blick</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf ältere Arbeitnehmer werfen,</font>

  1062
  00:54:10.132 --> 00:54:11.533 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie Schwierigkeiten haben,</font>

  1063
  00:54:12.172 --> 00:54:13.570 
  <font color="#ffffff">gut ausgebildete Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in ihrem Bereich zu finden.</font>

  1064
  00:54:14.212 --> 00:54:15.570 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben zu wenig Leute,</font>

  1065
  00:54:16.213 --> 00:54:18.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">die eine duale Berufslehre absol-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vieren und einen Beruf erlernen,</font>

  1066
  00:54:18.852 --> 00:54:20.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">den wir bei uns bei den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Mitgliederverbänden brauchen können.</font>

  1067
  00:54:21.292 --> 00:54:23.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin überzeugt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass meine Mitglieder</font>

  1068
  00:54:23.852 --> 00:54:26.370 
  <font color="#ffffff">ältere Arbeitnehmer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gerne einstellen.</font>

  1069
  00:54:27.012 --> 00:54:28.570 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir ältere Semester -</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ich spreche von mir -</font>

  1070
  00:54:29.213 --> 00:54:32.450 
  <font color="#00ffff">haben im Moment</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">relativ hohe Lohnbeiträge</font>

  1071
  00:54:33.093 --> 00:54:34.531 
  <font color="#00ffff">und sind damit teuer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für die Arbeitgeber.</font>

  1072
  00:54:35.172 --> 00:54:38.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, das ist im Massengeschäft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">v.a. ein Thema,</font>

  1073
  00:54:38.772 --> 00:54:40.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo sie viel Auswahl haben.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das haben wir nicht.</font>

  1074
  00:54:40.932 --> 00:54:42.410 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich möchte noch einmal wegkommen</font>

  1075
  00:54:43.052 --> 00:54:47.410 
  <font color="#00ffff">von der aktuellen Innenministerin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Elisabeth Baume-Schneider.</font>

  1076
  00:54:48.052 --> 00:54:51.330 
  <font color="#00ffff">Denn ihr Vorgänger</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hat im Zusammenhang der BVG-Reform</font>

  1077
  00:54:51.977 --> 00:54:57.210 
  <font color="#00ffff">auch etwas Interessantes gesagt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach dem knappen Ja zu AHV 21.</font>

  1078
  00:54:57.852 --> 00:54:59.810 
  <font color="#00ffff">Er hat das in Aussicht gestellt</font>

  1079
  00:55:00.452 --> 00:55:03.690 
  <font color="#00ffff">zusammen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit anderen Politiker/-innen:</font>

  1080
  00:55:04.332 --> 00:55:10.530 
  <font color="#008000">Dieses knappe Resultat ist auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">ein deutliches Signal ans Parlament</font>

  1081
  00:55:11.172 --> 00:55:13.410 
  <font color="#008000">und an den Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#008000">für eine Altersvorsorge,</font>

  1082
  00:55:14.051 --> 00:55:15.410 
  <font color="#008000">in der die Frauen</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht diskriminiert werden.</font>

  1083
  00:55:16.052 --> 00:55:22.250 
  <font color="#008000">Und dafür braucht man dringlich</font>
  <font color="#008000">eine gute Reform der zweiten Säule.</font>

  1084
  00:55:22.892 --> 00:55:26.050 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sagt der frühere Bundesrat und</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Innenminister und seit dieser Woche</font>

  1085
  00:55:26.692 --> 00:55:28.970 
  <font color="#00ffff">frischgebackene Generalsekretär</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">des Europarats.</font>

  1086
  00:55:29.612 --> 00:55:33.650 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Frauen sollen mit dieser Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht mehr diskriminiert sein.</font>

  1087
  00:55:36.373 --> 00:55:38.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schade, haben Sie nicht</font>

  1088
  00:55:38.972 --> 00:55:40.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">sein zweites Zitat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus dem Ständeratsplenum genommen.</font>

  1089
  00:55:41.292 --> 00:55:45.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kurz vor der Schlussabstimmung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat er dem Parlament gesagt:</font>

  1090
  00:55:45.653 --> 00:55:48.610 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Liebe Parlamentarierinnen und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Parlamentarier, das ist wirklich</font>

  1091
  00:55:49.252 --> 00:55:53.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine schlechte Leistung, die Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erbracht haben mit dieser Reform."</font>

  1092
  00:55:53.734 --> 00:55:56.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Es hat nichts zu tun mit diesem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kompromiss, es ist ein Abbau."</font>

  1093
  00:55:57.052 --> 00:55:59.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Es wurde unerkennbar."</font>

  1094
  00:55:59.812 --> 00:56:03.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Gesetzgeberisch wurde einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schlechte Pfuscharbeit geleistet."</font>

  1095
  00:56:04.331 --> 00:56:12.450 
  <font color="#ffffff">In dieser Deutlichkeit habe ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selten einen Bundesrat reden gehört.</font>

  1096
  00:56:13.091 --> 00:56:15.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber dieses Zitat gibt es.</font>

  1097
  00:56:15.652 --> 00:56:17.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">Etwas will ich noch anfügen:</font>

  1098
  00:56:17.652 --> 00:56:19.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben vorher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Frage gestreift ...</font>

  1099
  00:56:19.732 --> 00:56:22.289 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das brauchen wir nicht,</font>

  1100
  00:56:22.931 --> 00:56:24.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">brauchen es offenbar nicht.</font>

  1101
  00:56:25.132 --> 00:56:26.732 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber was passiert,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn wir es haben?</font>

  1102
  00:56:27.372 --> 00:56:31.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir werfen die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an vielen Orten wieder zurück.</font>

  1103
  00:56:31.892 --> 00:56:33.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn sie müssen dieses Monster</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wieder umsetzen.</font>

  1104
  00:56:34.532 --> 00:56:36.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich sitze</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in verschiedensten Stiftungsräten.</font>

  1105
  00:56:36.773 --> 00:56:39.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort heisst es immer, man wolle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den 22. September abwarten,</font>

  1106
  00:56:40.331 --> 00:56:43.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil man nicht wisse, was sonst noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alles an Arbeit auf sie zukommt.</font>

  1107
  00:56:44.051 --> 00:56:45.490 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist der Horror.</font>

  1108
  00:56:46.131 --> 00:56:48.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was wirklich auf die Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zukommen würde -</font>

  1109
  00:56:49.492 --> 00:56:52.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist nämlich spannend</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und hier wichtig -, Kaufkraft.</font>

  1110
  00:56:53.172 --> 00:56:55.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute geht es den Pensionskassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">so gut,</font>

  1111
  00:56:55.772 --> 00:56:59.529 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie die Reserven voll haben.</font>

  1112
  00:57:00.171 --> 00:57:03.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielen Kassen sind an dem Punkt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wo sie jetzt gesetzlich gesehen</font>

  1113
  00:57:04.171 --> 00:57:07.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">den Teuerungsausgleich für Rentner</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beschliessen müssten.</font>

  1114
  00:57:07.651 --> 00:57:10.450 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und der ist dann während Jahren weg,</font>

  1115
  00:57:11.097 --> 00:57:12.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man zuerst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Reform umsetzen</font>

  1116
  00:57:13.412 --> 00:57:16.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die komplizierte, ineffiziente</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Übergangsregelung finanzieren muss.</font>

  1117
  00:57:17.291 --> 00:57:20.530 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sind wieder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beim Bürokratiemonster angelangt.</font>

  1118
  00:57:21.172 --> 00:57:23.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hohe Renditen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommen den Versicherten zugute.</font>

  1119
  00:57:23.691 --> 00:57:26.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die landen bei uns im Kapital,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die geben eine höhere Rente.</font>

  1120
  00:57:27.372 --> 00:57:31.009 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich will noch mal auf das Votum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Frau Marti zurückkommen.</font>

  1121
  00:57:31.651 --> 00:57:35.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie hielt vorher eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Plädoyer für eine Volkspension.</font>

  1122
  00:57:36.371 --> 00:57:39.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Aussage von vorher, dass Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">doch eine Volkspension möchten,</font>

  1123
  00:57:39.771 --> 00:57:41.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">die stammt nicht von mir,</font>

  1124
  00:57:41.894 --> 00:57:44.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">die hat Cedric Wermuth mal gemacht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im "Feusi Federal" Ende 2021.</font>

  1125
  00:57:44.972 --> 00:57:48.329 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Marti) Bin ich Cedric Wermuth?</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Es ist Ihr Parteipräsident.</font>

  1126
  00:57:48.971 --> 00:57:51.169 
  <font color="#00ffff">Haben Sie ihn mit "ältere Herren"</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gemeint, Cedric Wermuth?</font>

  1127
  00:57:51.811 --> 00:57:53.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich sage jetzt lieber nichts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Cedrics Alter.</font>

  1128
  00:57:54.411 --> 00:57:56.049 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich bin auf jeden Fall Samira,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht Cedric.</font>

  1129
  00:57:56.692 --> 00:57:58.570 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Bertschy) Der Sozialpartner-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kompromiss, das sei die Vorlage,</font>

  1130
  00:57:59.212 --> 00:58:01.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Parlament könne diese nehmen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn es diese nicht nimmt,</font>

  1131
  00:58:01.850 --> 00:58:03.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann kommt Volkspension.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum geht es euch.</font>

  1132
  00:58:04.292 --> 00:58:06.129 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihr wollt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine tragende zweite Säule,</font>

  1133
  00:58:06.771 --> 00:58:08.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">die auch funktioniert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für Teilzeit und kleine Einkommen.</font>

  1134
  00:58:09.531 --> 00:58:11.330 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist genau das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was das Parlament gemacht hat.</font>

  1135
  00:58:11.971 --> 00:58:15.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist ein sehr guter Kompromiss,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der die Umwandlungssatzsenkung dort,</font>

  1136
  00:58:15.771 --> 00:58:17.610 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo es sie noch braucht, vornimmt.</font>

  1137
  00:58:18.253 --> 00:58:20.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Gegenzug</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bezahlt sie Rentenzuschläge.</font>

  1138
  00:58:20.892 --> 00:58:22.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie modernisiert das Sozialwerk,</font>

  1139
  00:58:23.172 --> 00:58:24.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">sodass es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für diejenigen funktioniert,</font>

  1140
  00:58:25.291 --> 00:58:26.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">für die es bisher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht funktioniert.</font>

  1141
  00:58:27.452 --> 00:58:28.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein wichtiger Schritt.</font>

  1142
  00:58:29.536 --> 00:58:31.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Bertschy,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man muss schon fair bleiben.</font>

  1143
  00:58:31.731 --> 00:58:33.170 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über diese Vorlage sprechen,</font>

  1144
  00:58:33.812 --> 00:58:35.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen wir nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Mitte der Parlamentsdebatte</font>

  1145
  00:58:35.892 --> 00:58:37.610 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu rechnen beginnen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dann gehen wir zurück an den Anfang.</font>

  1146
  00:58:38.251 --> 00:58:41.369 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das war der Vorschlag des</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundesrats, das war ein Kompromiss,</font>

  1147
  00:58:42.011 --> 00:58:43.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">der sog. Sozialpartner-Kompromiss.</font>

  1148
  00:58:44.491 --> 00:58:48.049 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eigentlich eine heilige Kuh.</font>

  1149
  00:58:48.691 --> 00:58:52.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn die Arbeitgeber und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Arbeitnehmer zusammen am Tisch sind</font>

  1150
  00:58:53.412 --> 00:58:56.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">und etwas ausarbeiten, von dem beide</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagen, sie können dahinter stehen.</font>

  1151
  00:58:57.372 --> 00:58:58.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darauf sind wir ganz stolz.</font>

  1152
  00:58:59.371 --> 00:59:00.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann braucht es nicht immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Politik und den Staat,</font>

  1153
  00:59:01.491 --> 00:59:03.449 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich einmischen und das Gefühl</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben, sie wissen alles besser.</font>

  1154
  00:59:04.091 --> 00:59:06.009 
  <font color="#ffffff">Normalerweise ist man froh,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn sich die beiden Seiten finden.</font>

  1155
  00:59:06.651 --> 00:59:08.133 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann sagt man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es gut für die Wirtschaft ist,</font>

  1156
  00:59:08.771 --> 00:59:10.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Praxis bestätigt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann macht man es so.</font>

  1157
  00:59:10.892 --> 00:59:12.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dann auch so beschlossen.</font>

  1158
  00:59:13.051 --> 00:59:14.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">Keine SP-Mehrheit, im Gegenteil.</font>

  1159
  00:59:15.292 --> 00:59:18.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Bundesrat, FDP, SVP, Mitte, SP</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben zusammen gesagt:</font>

  1160
  00:59:19.291 --> 00:59:21.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Gut, wenn die Sozialpartner sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie haben etwas gefunden,</font>

  1161
  00:59:22.131 --> 00:59:25.129 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann machen wir das so."</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis das Parlament kam.</font>

  1162
  00:59:25.771 --> 00:59:28.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann begann das Parlament,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das zu verhunzen.</font>

  1163
  00:59:28.691 --> 00:59:31.450 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der Grund, wieso der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ehemalige Bundesrat Alain Berset</font>

  1164
  00:59:32.092 --> 00:59:33.529 
  <font color="#ffffff">so deutliche Worte gefunden hat.</font>

  1165
  00:59:34.171 --> 00:59:37.609 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Idee eines</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgewogenen Kompromisses heisst,</font>

  1166
  00:59:38.251 --> 00:59:42.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">allen die Renten zu garantieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht einfach</font>

  1167
  00:59:42.731 --> 00:59:46.370 
  <font color="#ffffff">50- bis 65-jährige Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im kalten Wasser stehen zu lassen.</font>

  1168
  00:59:47.011 --> 00:59:49.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man schaut für alle Generationen</font>

  1169
  00:59:49.771 --> 00:59:52.009 
  <font color="#ffffff">und spielt auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die jüngeren Arbeitnehmenden</font>

  1170
  00:59:52.651 --> 00:59:54.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den älteren Arbeitnehmenden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegeneinander aus.</font>

  1171
  00:59:55.451 --> 00:59:56.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man schaut,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass alle in der zweiten Säule ...</font>

  1172
  00:59:57.531 --> 00:59:59.369 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist übrigens nicht privates</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sparen, sondern kollektives,</font>

  1173
  01:00:00.011 --> 01:00:02.490 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir zusammen die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bessere Rendite erarbeiten konnten.</font>

  1174
  01:00:03.132 --> 01:00:04.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben auch nichts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen die Rendite gesagt.</font>

  1175
  01:00:05.492 --> 01:00:07.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir schauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es den Leuten dort gut geht -</font>

  1176
  01:00:08.172 --> 01:00:10.529 
  <font color="#ffffff">und zwar allen Generationen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das begann man zu zerreissen.</font>

  1177
  01:00:11.171 --> 01:00:13.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">Den Sozialpartner-Kompromiss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt es nicht mehr.</font>

  1178
  01:00:14.051 --> 01:00:18.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das jetzt als Kompromiss zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bezeichnen, finde ich nicht ehrlich,</font>

  1179
  01:00:19.051 --> 01:00:21.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man die ganze Geschichte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Vorlage anschaut.</font>

  1180
  01:00:22.331 --> 01:00:24.370 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist die "Arena" zur BVG-Reform,</font>

  1181
  01:00:25.011 --> 01:00:26.729 
  <font color="#00ffff">es ist noch nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die "Abstimmungs-Arena".</font>

  1182
  01:00:27.371 --> 01:00:28.649 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die gibt es dann im September.</font>

  1183
  01:00:29.295 --> 01:00:31.089 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mit dabei ist dann die zuständige</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Bundesrätin Baume-Schneider.</font>

  1184
  01:00:31.731 --> 01:00:33.489 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie wird die Haltung von Regierung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Parlament vertreten.</font>

  1185
  01:00:34.131 --> 01:00:35.609 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber gerade wenn es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">um die Altersvorsorge geht,</font>

  1186
  01:00:36.251 --> 01:00:38.089 
  <font color="#00ffff">dann steht das Stimmvolk</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auch nicht immer hinter dem,</font>

  1187
  01:00:38.731 --> 01:00:41.090 
  <font color="#00ffff">was Bundesrat und Parlament wollen.</font>

  1188
  01:00:41.732 --> 01:00:43.529 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das haben wir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei der 13. AHV-Rente gesehen.</font>

  1189
  01:00:44.171 --> 01:00:46.449 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber was heisst das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für die kommende Vorlage?</font>

  1190
  01:00:47.091 --> 01:00:48.771 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die "NZZ" schrieb:</font>

  1191
  01:00:53.252 --> 01:00:57.169 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie schlimm, Frau Barandun,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wäre ein Nein zu dieser Reform?</font>

  1192
  01:00:57.812 --> 01:00:59.330 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist das ein Weltuntergang?</font>

  1193
  01:00:59.972 --> 01:01:02.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Weltuntergang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es natürlich nicht.</font>

  1194
  01:01:03.051 --> 01:01:05.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich fände es sehr schade,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn alle berechtigten Anliegen,</font>

  1195
  01:01:06.531 --> 01:01:08.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wir nun diskutiert haben ...</font>

  1196
  01:01:09.331 --> 01:01:12.449 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und ich glaube, bis auf den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Umwandlungssatz sind wir uns einig.</font>

  1197
  01:01:13.091 --> 01:01:15.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht nicht ganz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beim Tieflohnbereich.</font>

  1198
  01:01:15.732 --> 01:01:17.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ganz wichtige Anliegen,</font>

  1199
  01:01:17.851 --> 01:01:19.289 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sehr viele Leute betreffen.</font>

  1200
  01:01:19.931 --> 01:01:21.769 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wenn diese Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht angenommen wird,</font>

  1201
  01:01:22.411 --> 01:01:25.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">werden diese Anliegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wieder um Jahre zurückgeworfen.</font>

  1202
  01:01:26.051 --> 01:01:30.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich glaube, wir müssen daran</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">arbeiten, die Leute zu überzeugen,</font>

  1203
  01:01:31.490 --> 01:01:35.329 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass in obligatorischen Bereich -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das ist ein kleiner Teil -</font>

  1204
  01:01:35.970 --> 01:01:37.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Senkung nötig ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und auch ausgeglichen wird</font>

  1205
  01:01:38.491 --> 01:01:39.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">durch die Übergangsmassnahmen.</font>

  1206
  01:01:40.571 --> 01:01:42.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man ein bisschen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weitsichtig ist, weiss man,</font>

  1207
  01:01:43.331 --> 01:01:45.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man diesen Schritt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Erhaltung der Säule machen muss.</font>

  1208
  01:01:46.451 --> 01:01:49.569 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss sie modernisieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Zukunft führen.</font>

  1209
  01:01:50.211 --> 01:01:52.969 
  <font color="#ffffff">Davon ist die demographische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Entwicklung ein Teil.</font>

  1210
  01:01:53.610 --> 01:01:56.049 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man die Jungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht im Stich lassen will,</font>

  1211
  01:01:56.691 --> 01:01:58.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man das auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in dieser Altersvorsorge machen.</font>

  1212
  01:01:59.571 --> 01:02:01.449 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gabriela Medici,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als die Vertreterin,</font>

  1213
  01:02:02.091 --> 01:02:03.489 
  <font color="#00ffff">die das Referendum ergriffen hat:</font>

  1214
  01:02:04.131 --> 01:02:05.809 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn ich das, was Frau Barandun</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sagt, richtig verstehe,</font>

  1215
  01:02:06.450 --> 01:02:07.892 
  <font color="#00ffff">spricht sie Ihnen eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Weitsicht ab.</font>

  1216
  01:02:08.531 --> 01:02:11.569 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist interessant, denn wenn man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Umwandlungssatzsenkung macht,</font>

  1217
  01:02:12.211 --> 01:02:14.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann dauert es 20 Jahre,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis sich irgendetwas verändert.</font>

  1218
  01:02:15.290 --> 01:02:16.769 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin zuversichtlich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Parlament</font>

  1219
  01:02:17.411 --> 01:02:23.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer gescheiten Vorlage für</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeitbeschäftigte schneller ist.</font>

  1220
  01:02:24.371 --> 01:02:25.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schwierigkeit ist:</font>

  1221
  01:02:26.453 --> 01:02:27.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben eine zweite Säule,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist Zwangssparen.</font>

  1222
  01:02:28.571 --> 01:02:31.129 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sozialversicherung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">solidarisches Zwangssparen.</font>

  1223
  01:02:32.092 --> 01:02:36.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frage ist: Lassen wir diesen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbstbedienungsladen weiterlaufen?</font>

  1224
  01:02:37.491 --> 01:02:40.209 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir ehrlich sind, das ist das,</font>

  1225
  01:02:40.851 --> 01:02:42.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">was wirklich passiert ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hinter den Kulissen im Parlament.</font>

  1226
  01:02:43.451 --> 01:02:47.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat das Projekt von den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sozialpartnern, vom Bundesrat</font>

  1227
  01:02:48.130 --> 01:02:50.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat man zerrissen, weil man wollte,</font>

  1228
  01:02:51.131 --> 01:02:54.009 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man weiter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gut Geld verdienen kann.</font>

  1229
  01:02:54.651 --> 01:02:57.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jegliche Vorschläge</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer Effizienzkontrolle,</font>

  1230
  01:02:58.451 --> 01:03:02.768 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo die Finanzindustrie sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht weiter selbst bedienen kann</font>

  1231
  01:03:03.410 --> 01:03:05.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">an dieser zweiten Säule ...</font>

  1232
  01:03:06.050 --> 01:03:08.609 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nochmals, 1 Billion Fr., damit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kann man viele Geschäfte machen.</font>

  1233
  01:03:09.252 --> 01:03:11.129 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist Geschäftemacherei.</font>

  1234
  01:03:11.771 --> 01:03:14.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen eine Vorlage,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die das unterbindet.</font>

  1235
  01:03:15.292 --> 01:03:17.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist es, was die Versicherten und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ehrlicherweise auch die Arbeitgeber</font>

  1236
  01:03:18.451 --> 01:03:19.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">wirklich verdienen.</font>

  1237
  01:03:20.571 --> 01:03:23.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass die Finanzindustrie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sich für sich selbst einsetzt,</font>

  1238
  01:03:23.850 --> 01:03:28.169 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ja schön und recht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber als Vertreterin von Bäckereien,</font>

  1239
  01:03:28.810 --> 01:03:31.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">von denen wir wissen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie mit dieser Reform</font>

  1240
  01:03:31.731 --> 01:03:35.569 
  <font color="#ffffff">von einem Tag auf den anderen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Verdoppelung der Lohnkosten ...</font>

  1241
  01:03:36.216 --> 01:03:41.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind reale Zahlen, genau wie es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Baume-Schneider gesagt hat.</font>

  1242
  01:03:41.650 --> 01:03:43.329 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schauen Sie es nach.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das müssen wir verhindern.</font>

  1243
  01:03:43.971 --> 01:03:45.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das müsste</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch im Gewerbe klar sein.</font>

  1244
  01:03:46.130 --> 01:03:48.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bäckereien und Metzgereien sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">übrigens auch darum sehr skeptisch.</font>

  1245
  01:03:49.374 --> 01:03:53.169 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war jetzt ein rechter Tritt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ans Schienbein, finde ich,</font>

  1246
  01:03:53.811 --> 01:03:57.488 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn Frau Medici Ihnen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Frau Bertschy, vorwirft,</font>

  1247
  01:03:58.130 --> 01:04:02.089 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es Ihnen nur um Geschäfte-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">macherei geht bei dieser Revision.</font>

  1248
  01:04:02.731 --> 01:04:06.369 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie bestreiten das,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das ist mir klar.</font>

  1249
  01:04:07.011 --> 01:04:10.089 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber wäre es schlimm,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn es nicht durchkommen würde?</font>

  1250
  01:04:10.731 --> 01:04:14.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Sozialpartner-Kompromiss ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht durch das Parlament gekommen -</font>

  1251
  01:04:15.610 --> 01:04:19.169 
  <font color="#ffffff">und in unserem Land macht immer noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Parlament Gesetze -,</font>

  1252
  01:04:19.810 --> 01:04:21.449 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil er eine Vermischung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der zwei Säulen vorsah.</font>

  1253
  01:04:22.091 --> 01:04:23.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wollte das Parlament nicht.</font>

  1254
  01:04:24.131 --> 01:04:25.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Darum hat man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Kompromiss geschmiedet.</font>

  1255
  01:04:26.370 --> 01:04:27.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für mich ist es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine einmalige, verpasste Chance,</font>

  1256
  01:04:28.452 --> 01:04:30.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn wir diese Reform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht annehmen.</font>

  1257
  01:04:31.130 --> 01:04:32.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zum einen ist es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein jahrzehntealtes Anliegen</font>

  1258
  01:04:33.612 --> 01:04:36.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">der Frauenorganisationen, endlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Koordinationsabzug anzupassen,</font>

  1259
  01:04:36.731 --> 01:04:38.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man die Eintrittsschwelle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">senkt und sie besser versichert.</font>

  1260
  01:04:39.531 --> 01:04:41.769 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht nur die Alliance F,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die das unterstützt,</font>

  1261
  01:04:42.415 --> 01:04:43.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Katholische Frauenbund,</font>

  1262
  01:04:44.451 --> 01:04:45.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Bäuerinnen und Landfrauen -</font>

  1263
  01:04:46.571 --> 01:04:48.608 
  <font color="#ffffff">all die grossen Dachverbände</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterstützen das.</font>

  1264
  01:04:49.250 --> 01:04:53.169 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss realistisch und pragmatisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bleiben.</font>

  1265
  01:04:53.810 --> 01:04:55.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird keine Reform geben,</font>

  1266
  01:04:56.331 --> 01:04:59.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo man den überholten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Umwandlungssatz nicht mit anpasst,</font>

  1267
  01:05:00.051 --> 01:05:02.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">also wo es gelingt, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Teilzeit- und Mehrfachbeschäftigten,</font>

  1268
  01:05:03.371 --> 01:05:06.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">die kleinen Einkommen endlich fair</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Pensionskasse zu versichern,</font>

  1269
  01:05:06.690 --> 01:05:09.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">ohne dass der überholte Teil</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Umwandlungssatzes</font>

  1270
  01:05:09.690 --> 01:05:11.368 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht auch noch mit angepasst wird.</font>

  1271
  01:05:12.010 --> 01:05:14.415 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort machen wir Rentenzuschläge,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um das auszugleichen.</font>

  1272
  01:05:15.051 --> 01:05:17.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist fair. Und für mich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es eine verpasste Chance.</font>

  1273
  01:05:18.331 --> 01:05:20.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die ist einmalig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir sollten sie packen.</font>

  1274
  01:05:21.531 --> 01:05:24.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und es ist eine ganz breite Allianz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die das mitträgt.</font>

  1275
  01:05:24.970 --> 01:05:27.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe vorher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Frauenorganisationen genannt,</font>

  1276
  01:05:27.970 --> 01:05:31.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber es ist auch das Gewerbe, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wirtschaft, es sind die Parteien -</font>

  1277
  01:05:31.850 --> 01:05:35.089 
  <font color="#ffffff">GLP, Mitte, FDP, SVP,</font>

  1278
  01:05:35.731 --> 01:05:39.609 
  <font color="#ffffff">grüne Baselland</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben auch eine Ja-Parole gefasst.</font>

  1279
  01:05:40.251 --> 01:05:44.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">Eine breite Allianz unterstützt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Reform - aus guten Gründen.</font>

  1280
  01:05:44.970 --> 01:05:47.528 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dort macht die SP nicht mit,</font>

  1281
  01:05:48.170 --> 01:05:50.769 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern stellt sich logischerweise</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf die Seite der Gewerkschaft.</font>

  1282
  01:05:51.410 --> 01:05:53.609 
  <font color="#00ffff">Samira Marti, "zurück auf Feld 1",</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn das passiert am 22. September,</font>

  1283
  01:05:54.250 --> 01:05:55.849 
  <font color="#00ffff">was ist dann</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein konstruktiver Vorschlag,</font>

  1284
  01:05:56.491 --> 01:05:58.172 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es trotzdem weitergehen würde?</font>

  1285
  01:05:58.810 --> 01:06:01.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Fortschritt bei dieser Debatte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre bei einem Nein,</font>

  1286
  01:06:01.974 --> 01:06:04.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man offensichtlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von links bis rechts -</font>

  1287
  01:06:04.850 --> 01:06:08.294 
  <font color="#ffffff">neu ist v.a., dass die bürgerlichen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rechten Parteien dafür sind -</font>

  1288
  01:06:08.931 --> 01:06:12.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">die angesprochenen Modernisierungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schritte machen würde.</font>

  1289
  01:06:13.570 --> 01:06:16.368 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Senkung des</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Umwandlungssatzes wäre vom Tisch.</font>

  1290
  01:06:17.010 --> 01:06:20.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wäre auch nicht das erste Mal,</font>

  1291
  01:06:20.690 --> 01:06:23.608 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Stimmvolk eine Vorlage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus dem Parlament ablehnt.</font>

  1292
  01:06:24.250 --> 01:06:25.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das macht unser Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und die direkte Demokratie aus.</font>

  1293
  01:06:26.531 --> 01:06:28.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt zig Beispiele</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Geschichte dieses Landes,</font>

  1294
  01:06:29.370 --> 01:06:31.289 
  <font color="#ffffff">die zeigen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht so schlecht ist,</font>

  1295
  01:06:31.931 --> 01:06:33.448 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Bevölkerung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">korrigieren kann,</font>

  1296
  01:06:34.090 --> 01:06:36.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn im Parlament überdreht wurde.</font>

  1297
  01:06:36.850 --> 01:06:39.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kommt eine bessere,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgeglichenere Vorlage.</font>

  1298
  01:06:40.610 --> 01:06:42.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein prominentes Beispiel</font>

  1299
  01:06:42.690 --> 01:06:44.289 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das klare Nein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Unternehmenssteuerreform 3.</font>

  1300
  01:06:44.930 --> 01:06:48.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit der sog. STAF-Vorlage wurde dann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Kompromiss geschmiedet,</font>

  1301
  01:06:49.532 --> 01:06:51.608 
  <font color="#ffffff">den die Bevölkerung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehrheitlich akzeptierte,</font>

  1302
  01:06:52.250 --> 01:06:53.808 
  <font color="#ffffff">da etwas für alle dabei war.</font>

  1303
  01:06:54.450 --> 01:06:56.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist auch das Stichwort:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Allgemeinwohl,</font>

  1304
  01:06:57.051 --> 01:07:00.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">das nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus dem Zentrum geraten darf.</font>

  1305
  01:07:01.050 --> 01:07:02.529 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Stimmvolk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entscheidet schlussendlich</font>

  1306
  01:07:03.170 --> 01:07:05.449 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dieses</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als nicht weitsichtig zu bezeichnen,</font>

  1307
  01:07:06.091 --> 01:07:07.568 
  <font color="#ffffff">finde ich auch relativ schwierig.</font>

  1308
  01:07:08.209 --> 01:07:10.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">V.a. wenn am Schluss alle für sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selber die Rechnung machen können</font>

  1309
  01:07:10.970 --> 01:07:13.688 
  <font color="#ffffff">und es total legitim ist, zu sagen:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">"Wir stärken nicht die AHV im März</font>

  1310
  01:07:14.330 --> 01:07:17.328 
  <font color="#ffffff">und kürzen im September die Renten."</font>

  1311
  01:07:17.970 --> 01:07:21.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade in Zeiten, wo alles</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">teurer wird, ergibt das keinen Sinn.</font>

  1312
  01:07:22.291 --> 01:07:24.928 
  <font color="#00ffff">Samira Marti, Gabriela Medici,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Kathrin Bertschy, Nicole Barandun,</font>

  1313
  01:07:25.570 --> 01:07:28.048 
  <font color="#00ffff">vielen Dank</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für diese informative Diskussion.</font>

  1314
  01:07:28.690 --> 01:07:30.408 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie war es für Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in dieser Premiere, Frau Barandun?</font>

  1315
  01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:32.408 
  <font color="#00ffff">Kommen Sie wieder einmal?</font>

  1316
  01:07:33.050 --> 01:07:34.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, jetzt am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war ich ganz entspannt.</font>

  1317
  01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:36.528 
  <font color="#ffffff">Am Anfang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war ich schon etwas nervös.</font>

  1318
  01:07:37.170 --> 01:07:39.489 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da muss man sich überlegen, ob der</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Moderator alles richtig gemacht hat,</font>

  1319
  01:07:40.130 --> 01:07:41.729 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn die Gäste am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">so entspannt sind.</font>

  1320
  01:07:42.371 --> 01:07:44.168 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mal schauen, vielleicht steigt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Puls jetzt noch einmal ...</font>

  1321
  01:07:44.810 --> 01:07:46.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Marti) Vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir eine Frauenrunde sind.</font>

  1322
  01:07:46.850 --> 01:07:48.648 
  <font color="#00ffff">... denn eine Frau</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch weit weg vom Pensionsalter</font>

  1323
  01:07:49.290 --> 01:07:51.568 
  <font color="#00ffff">hat die Debatte zur BVG-Reform</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit Argusaugen beobachtet.</font>

  1324
  01:07:52.211 --> 01:07:54.328 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie macht sich noch immer Notizen.</font>

  1325
  01:07:54.970 --> 01:07:58.489 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aus all dem gibt es jetzt etwas,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei dem ich mich jedes Mal frage,</font>

  1326
  01:07:59.130 --> 01:08:02.168 
  <font color="#00ffff">wie man das in kürzester Zeit</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">live hinkriegt.</font>

  1327
  01:08:02.810 --> 01:08:04.408 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist der Beweis, dass es geht.</font>

  1328
  01:08:05.050 --> 01:08:08.568 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich bitte Patti Basler, auf ihre</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Position zu gehen für ihr Protokoll,</font>

  1329
  01:08:09.210 --> 01:08:12.328 
  <font color="#00ffff">begleitet</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von einem ohrenbetäubenden Applaus.</font>

  1330
  01:08:22.973 --> 01:08:25.167 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wieso sind die Männer</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht gekommen?</font>

  1331
  01:08:25.810 --> 01:08:27.728 
  <font color="#ffff00">Vielleicht haben sie einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">auf dem Spielplan falsch geschaut</font>

  1332
  01:08:28.370 --> 01:08:29.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">und haben gedacht,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">es sei heute ein EM-Spiel.</font>

  1333
  01:08:30.410 --> 01:08:32.729 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber ich würde sagen bad karma,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">liebe Sekundärschulklassen,</font>

  1334
  01:08:33.370 --> 01:08:35.528 
  <font color="#ffff00">das Thema</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">könnte nicht schlechter passen,</font>

  1335
  01:08:36.169 --> 01:08:37.688 
  <font color="#ffff00">es geht um Boomer.</font>

  1336
  01:08:38.330 --> 01:08:42.408 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und was langweilt euch noch mehr?</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Es geht um das Renten-ABC.</font>

  1337
  01:08:43.050 --> 01:08:48.848 
  <font color="#ffff00">AHV, SGB und BVG, auch für die Frau</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">soll's mehr geben, sagt die GLP.</font>

  1338
  01:08:49.490 --> 01:08:52.009 
  <font color="#ffff00">Doch das wird so nicht geschehen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das sagt die SP.</font>

  1339
  01:08:52.651 --> 01:08:55.888 
  <font color="#ffff00">Bevor wir stimmen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wüssten wir gern mehr.</font>

  1340
  01:08:56.529 --> 01:08:59.968 
  <font color="#ffff00">Also, liebe Kids, es gebe für diese</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Vorlage keinen Schönheitspreis,</font>

  1341
  01:09:00.611 --> 01:09:02.048 
  <font color="#ffff00">hiess es an dieser Stelle.</font>

  1342
  01:09:02.691 --> 01:09:06.247 
  <font color="#ffff00">Trotz vier Frauen ist es also doch</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht Switzerland's next top Modell.</font>

  1343
  01:09:06.890 --> 01:09:11.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es sind zwar vier hotte Frauen -</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die sieht man hier -,</font>

  1344
  01:09:12.410 --> 01:09:14.968 
  <font color="#ffff00">doch in der Mitte hat es einen Bro.</font>

  1345
  01:09:15.609 --> 01:09:17.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">Einen Bro, einen Brotz.</font>

  1346
  01:09:18.410 --> 01:09:19.928 
  <font color="#ffff00">Typisch für einen einzelnen Mann</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und sein Ego:</font>

  1347
  01:09:20.569 --> 01:09:22.368 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Frauen kämpfen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der Bro spielt Lego.</font>

  1348
  01:09:34.291 --> 01:09:39.089 
  <font color="#ffff00">Am Schluss gibt es ein Voting,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn das Ganze dann endet.</font>

  1349
  01:09:39.732 --> 01:09:42.488 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist klar, dass man hier</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">den Bachelor sendet.</font>

  1350
  01:09:43.130 --> 01:09:46.888 
  <font color="#ffff00">Der Bachelor, er hat ein Legohaus</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">mit drei fetten Säulen,</font>

  1351
  01:09:47.529 --> 01:09:51.292 
  <font color="#ffff00">und die Frauen wollen einziehen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">könnt ihr es spüren?</font>

  1352
  01:09:51.930 --> 01:09:55.688 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die erste Säule zahlen wir alle,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Mann, non-binär, Nemo oder Frau,</font>

  1353
  01:09:56.330 --> 01:09:59.688 
  <font color="#ffff00">die erste Säule heisst nämlich AHV.</font>

  1354
  01:10:00.331 --> 01:10:01.808 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist so eine Art Überlebenshilfe</font>

  1355
  01:10:02.450 --> 01:10:05.087 
  <font color="#ffff00">für jeden old boy und jede MILF,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">jede GILF.</font>

  1356
  01:10:05.730 --> 01:10:08.888 
  <font color="#ffff00">Also, GILF ist einfach:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Grandmother, I'd like to finance.</font>

  1357
  01:10:13.132 --> 01:10:15.288 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wieso lachen auch die Lehrpersonen?</font>

  1358
  01:10:15.935 --> 01:10:18.328 
  <font color="#ffff00">Euren Suchverlauf</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">will ich mal sehen.</font>

  1359
  01:10:18.970 --> 01:10:22.328 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Säulen sind nicht aus Lego</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in der echten Welt,</font>

  1360
  01:10:22.969 --> 01:10:24.568 
  <font color="#ffff00">die Säulen sind aus purem Geld.</font>

  1361
  01:10:25.209 --> 01:10:27.088 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die zweite Säule, BVG,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">um die geht es,</font>

  1362
  01:10:27.730 --> 01:10:29.769 
  <font color="#ffff00">die bezahlen wir mit unserem Lohn</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und einen Teil davon</font>

  1363
  01:10:30.409 --> 01:10:32.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">bezahlen die Arbeitgeberinnen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und das heisst Pension.</font>

  1364
  01:10:33.409 --> 01:10:37.487 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und für das gibt es jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dieses Voting über diese Revision.</font>

  1365
  01:10:38.129 --> 01:10:39.847 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die dritte Säule</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">vergessen wir ein bisschen,</font>

  1366
  01:10:40.489 --> 01:10:42.088 
  <font color="#ffff00">die ist sowieso nur</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">für die rich kids.</font>

  1367
  01:10:42.730 --> 01:10:45.648 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die zweite Säule wird nun umgebaut,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das ist Sache.</font>

  1368
  01:10:46.290 --> 01:10:49.528 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und jede Bachelor-Kandidatin</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">will es anders machen.</font>

  1369
  01:10:50.170 --> 01:10:54.088 
  <font color="#ffff00">Kathrin sagt:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">"Hey, besser das als nichts,</font>

  1370
  01:10:54.731 --> 01:10:56.127 
  <font color="#ffff00">voted für mich und für die Revision,</font>

  1371
  01:10:56.769 --> 01:10:59.207 
  <font color="#ffff00">so gibt es auch für Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">mit ganz wenig Lohn eine Pension."</font>

  1372
  01:10:59.851 --> 01:11:02.448 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Die Schwelle dieser</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Bachelor-Pension wird dann tiefer</font>

  1373
  01:11:03.089 --> 01:11:04.808 
  <font color="#ffff00">und auch Coiffeuse-Brigitte</font>

  1374
  01:11:05.450 --> 01:11:08.888 
  <font color="#ffff00">kann so in diese Villa</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">über diese Schwelle schreiten."</font>

  1375
  01:11:09.530 --> 01:11:10.968 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Sagt Ja."</font>

  1376
  01:11:11.610 --> 01:11:15.327 
  <font color="#ffff00">Samira sagt: "Voted für mich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und gegen die Revision,</font>

  1377
  01:11:15.970 --> 01:11:18.928 
  <font color="#ffff00">wir bezahlen für diese Säule sonst</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">viel zu viel Prozent vom Lohn."</font>

  1378
  01:11:19.569 --> 01:11:21.408 
  <font color="#ffff00">Also, Bro-Zent, oder?</font>

  1379
  01:11:22.050 --> 01:11:23.928 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Für euch 20-Jährige</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">gibt es dann weniger Kohle,</font>

  1380
  01:11:24.570 --> 01:11:28.529 
  <font color="#ffff00">nur damit ihr erst in 50 Jahre</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">als GILF etwas mehr könnt holen?"</font>

  1381
  01:11:29.170 --> 01:11:31.327 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Nein."</font>

  1382
  01:11:31.969 --> 01:11:34.808 
  <font color="#ffff00">Barandun sagt:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">"Voted Ja und für mich."</font>

  1383
  01:11:36.131 --> 01:11:41.648 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Denn Gesunde und Weitsichtige</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">sehen, wo das Tor ist."</font>

  1384
  01:11:42.289 --> 01:11:44.648 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Die Säulenfinanzierung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist obligatorisch."</font>

  1385
  01:11:45.290 --> 01:11:48.727 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Und für die Jungen ist es gut,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn das Haus muss eben</font>

  1386
  01:11:49.369 --> 01:11:52.167 
  <font color="#ffff00">auch mit diesen drei Säulen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ganz lange halten."</font>

  1387
  01:11:52.809 --> 01:11:55.208 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und am Schluss sagt sie noch keck:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">"I'll be back."</font>

  1388
  01:11:57.571 --> 01:11:59.608 
  <font color="#ffff00">Medici sagt: "Voted für mich."</font>

  1389
  01:12:00.250 --> 01:12:03.048 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Schon Berset hat gesagt, man habe</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">uns mit dieser Revision reingelegt."</font>

  1390
  01:12:03.690 --> 01:12:06.527 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Und wie Marti erwarte ich,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dass auch die Frauen profitieren,</font>

  1391
  01:12:07.169 --> 01:12:08.690 
  <font color="#ffff00">die nicht alles</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in den Beruf investieren,</font>

  1392
  01:12:09.331 --> 01:12:11.050 
  <font color="#ffff00">sondern die,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die die Villa vom Bachelor putzen</font>

  1393
  01:12:11.689 --> 01:12:13.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">und die Windeln wechseln -</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">solche change manager."</font>

  1394
  01:12:14.409 --> 01:12:16.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und liebe Sek-Klassen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ihr fragt vielleicht:</font>

  1395
  01:12:17.410 --> 01:12:19.768 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Yo, Bro, was gibt's,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wem gehört eigentlich diese Villa?"</font>

  1396
  01:12:20.410 --> 01:12:22.687 
  <font color="#ffff00">"Wer hat den Rizz und den Besitz?"</font>

  1397
  01:12:23.329 --> 01:12:27.487 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ja, liebe Kids, die erste Säule,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zweite Säule, dritte Säule -</font>

  1398
  01:12:28.129 --> 01:12:30.091 
  <font color="#ffff00">Eintrittsschwelle:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Tresor mit Lohnkasse.</font>

  1399
  01:12:30.729 --> 01:12:34.488 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Villa gehört sowieso schon lange</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der Pensionskasse.</font>

  1400
  01:12:46.251 --> 01:12:48.207 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herzlichen Dank.</font>

  1401
  01:12:51.211 --> 01:12:54.849 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich kriege immer gerne von Patti</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Basler den Spiegel vorgehalten.</font>

  1402
  01:12:55.492 --> 01:12:58.287 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vielen Dank, dass Sie alle zusammen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">meine Gäste waren.</font>

  1403
  01:12:58.930 --> 01:13:03.847 
  <font color="#00ffff">Auf diesem Sendeplatz gibt es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den Sommer über ein Sommerprogramm.</font>

  1404
  01:13:04.489 --> 01:13:06.328 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir von der "Arena"</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hecken schon einmal aus,</font>

  1405
  01:13:06.970 --> 01:13:10.048 
  <font color="#00ffff">was wir ab dem 23. August</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder vorhaben mit Ihnen -</font>

  1406
  01:13:10.688 --> 01:13:14.088 
  <font color="#00ffff">wie wir Sie anregen oder vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auch aufregend wollen, je nach dem.</font>

  1407
  01:13:14.730 --> 01:13:17.287 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das alles ist nur mit einem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">grossartigen Team im Rücken möglich,</font>

  1408
  01:13:17.929 --> 01:13:21.927 
  <font color="#00ffff">von der Technik, Produktion,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Regie und Redaktion.</font>

  1409
  01:13:22.569 --> 01:13:28.608 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dann möchte ich mich heute vom Mann</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in meinem Ohr verabschieden,</font>

  1410
  01:13:29.250 --> 01:13:32.527 
  <font color="#00ffff">der ab und zu mal etwas sagt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das ist Christoph Leisibach.</font>

  1411
  01:13:33.169 --> 01:13:35.247 
  <font color="#00ffff">Er hat die "Arena" heute</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zum letzten Mal produziert.</font>

  1412
  01:13:35.889 --> 01:13:37.327 
  <font color="#00ffff">Er übergibt an Chiara Stäheli,</font>

  1413
  01:13:37.969 --> 01:13:39.407 
  <font color="#00ffff">die die Sendung auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mitproduziert hat.</font>

  1414
  01:13:40.049 --> 01:13:43.088 
  <font color="#00ffff">Leisi, danke für deine Riesenarbeit.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Viel Erfolg in Zukunft.</font>

  1415
  01:13:43.729 --> 01:13:46.048 
  <font color="#00ffff">Du bleibst dem Haus ja erhalten,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gehst in den Newsroom.</font>

  1416
  01:13:46.690 --> 01:13:48.768 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mal schauen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ob es dort so toll ist wie bei uns.</font>

  1417
  01:13:49.410 --> 01:13:52.167 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir werden das herausfinden und</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in Kontakt bleiben. Viel Glück.</font>

  1418
  01:13:52.809 --> 01:13:54.887 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich bedanke mich von Herzen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beim ganzen Team.</font>

  1419
  01:13:55.529 --> 01:13:57.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich verweise auf die Zusammenfassung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von dieser Arena</font>

  1420
  01:13:57.769 --> 01:14:00.007 
  <font color="#00ffff">in der SRF News App und auf srf.ch.</font>

  1421
  01:14:00.649 --> 01:14:02.368 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich werde Sie auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in den kommenden Wochen und Monaten</font>

  1422
  01:14:03.010 --> 01:14:06.488 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf Instagram auf dem Laufenden</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">halten, was wir so aushecken.</font>

  1423
  01:14:07.130 --> 01:14:10.847 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bleiben Sie uns treu,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bleiben Sie kritisch, hopp Schwiiz</font>

  1424
  01:14:11.489 --> 01:14:13.527 
  <font color="#00ffff">und gute Nacht aus dem Studio 8.</font>

  1425
  01:14:14.169 --> 01:14:17.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">SWISS TXT / Accessibility Services</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Nina Oeggerli, Kira Euler,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Julia Böhm, Lisa Pfeiffer</font>

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topics:
  [["frauen", "frau", "einkommen", "f\u00fchrt", "reform", "vorlage", "einfach", "passiert", "barandun", "stehen"], ["rente", "vorlage", "leute", "parlament", "versicherten", "braucht", "schauen", "menschen", "h\u00f6here", "jungen"], ["s\u00e4ule", "pensionskassen", "vorlage", "genau", "frau", "zahlen", "bvg", "parlament", "einkommen", "geld"], ["reform", "versichert", "frauen", "prozent", "rente", "pensionskassen", "neu", "vorsorge", "leute", "versicherten"], ["fr.", "s\u00e4ule", "sagen", "pensionskasse", "renten", "rente", "reform", "frau", "arbeitnehmer", "leute"]]


