# episodes

urn: urn:srf:video:4eec5971-d24b-4ed1-bc14-a03807f5599a
title: AKW reloaded?
created_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:34
updated_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:34
mediacomposition:
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Hinter der \u00abBlackout stoppen\u00bb-Initiative steht die Vereinigung Energie Club Schweiz.\r\n\r\nTechnologie-Offenheit oder wirtschaftlicher Unsinn?\r\n\u00abF\u00fcr eine langfristig sichere Versorgung braucht es alle Energiequellen\u00bb, begr\u00fcndete Energieminister Albert R\u00f6sti den Bundesratsentscheid. Weil die Schweiz bis 2050 netto null Emissionen anstrebe, werde der Strombedarf deutlich ansteigen, weshalb man alle M\u00f6glichkeiten der Stromproduktion offenlassen m\u00fcsse, so R\u00f6sti. Die SVP und die FDP stehen grunds\u00e4tzlich hinter diesem Vorhaben.\r\n\r\nDie im Bundesrat unterlegene SP, Gr\u00fcne und GLP kritisierten den Entscheid des Bundesrats scharf. Der Bau neuer Atomkraftwerke sei \u00abwirtschaftlicher Unsinn\u00bb und stelle ein grosses Sicherheitsrisiko dar. 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subtitles:
  WEBVTT

  1
  00:00:01.303 --> 00:00:03.591 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eine neue Initiative will,</font>

  2
  00:00:04.232 --> 00:00:06.025 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">neue Atomkraftwerke bauen kann.</font>

  3
  00:00:06.666 --> 00:00:08.303 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">steigt auf dieser Idee auf</font>

  4
  00:00:08.944 --> 00:00:11.193 
  <font color="#00ffff">und möchte den Atomausstieg kippen,</font>

  5
  00:00:11.835 --> 00:00:13.924 
  <font color="#00ffff">nur sieben Jahre</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach der Abstimmung, nota bene.</font>

  6
  00:00:14.565 --> 00:00:17.443 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es tatsächlich mehr</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Kernkraft für die Energiezukunft</font>

  7
  00:00:18.084 --> 00:00:19.635 
  <font color="#00ffff">in diesem Land</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder braucht es das nicht?</font>

  8
  00:00:20.276 --> 00:00:22.573 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist der Politstoff</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für die "Arena".</font>

  9
  00:00:31.846 --> 00:00:34.823 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit Live-Untertiteln von SWISS TXT</font>

  10
  00:00:36.125 --> 00:00:38.513 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute in der "Arena":</font>

  11
  00:00:39.162 --> 00:00:40.925 
  <font color="#ffffff">Michael Graber, Parteileitung SVP.</font>

  12
  00:00:41.566 --> 00:00:45.633 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er sagt: "Die Bevölkerung wächst,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir brauchen mehr Strom."</font>

  13
  00:00:46.274 --> 00:00:48.453 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Der Ausbau der Erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">reicht dafür nicht."</font>

  14
  00:00:49.095 --> 00:00:51.443 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Es braucht zwingend</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neue Kernkraftwerke."</font>

  15
  00:00:52.084 --> 00:00:55.653 
  <font color="#ffffff">Priska Wismer-Felder,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Nationalrätin Die Mitte, sagt:</font>

  16
  00:00:56.295 --> 00:00:59.543 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Politik und Bevölkerung stehen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hinter dem Ausbau der Erneuerbaren."</font>

  17
  00:01:00.184 --> 00:01:03.353 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Die Debatte um neue AKS</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schwächt diesen Entscheid</font>

  18
  00:01:03.994 --> 00:01:05.654 
  <font color="#ffffff">und bringt neue Unsicherheiten."</font>

  19
  00:01:06.295 --> 00:01:10.183 
  <font color="#ffffff">Susanne Vincenz-Stauffacher,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Nationalrätin FDP, sagt:</font>

  20
  00:01:10.824 --> 00:01:13.875 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Die Frage ist nicht Erneuerbare</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder Kernenergie -</font>

  21
  00:01:14.516 --> 00:01:17.054 
  <font color="#ffffff">für eine sichere Stromversorgung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen wir offen sein</font>

  22
  00:01:17.695 --> 00:01:19.308 
  <font color="#ffffff">gegenüber allen Technologien."</font>

  23
  00:01:19.949 --> 00:01:23.035 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult, Vizepräsident SP, sagt:</font>

  24
  00:01:23.676 --> 00:01:26.203 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Neue AKW sind keine kluge Option."</font>

  25
  00:01:26.845 --> 00:01:28.504 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Der Bau dauert zu lange."</font>

  26
  00:01:29.145 --> 00:01:31.283 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Sie wären viel zu teuer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das Sicherheitsrisiko</font>

  27
  00:01:31.924 --> 00:01:33.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist historisch gesehen immens."</font>

  28
  00:01:34.524 --> 00:01:36.335 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ausserdem im Studio:</font>

  29
  00:01:36.976 --> 00:01:39.983 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vanessa Meury, Präsidentin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energie Club Schweiz.</font>

  30
  00:01:40.624 --> 00:01:47.541 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und Gioia Benninger,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Vorstand Allianz Atomausstieg.</font>

  31
  00:01:48.182 --> 00:01:50.473 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die "Arena", moderiert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Mario Grossniklaus.</font>

  32
  00:01:52.134 --> 00:01:57.213 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vielen Dank, herzlich willkommen,</font>

  33
  00:01:57.854 --> 00:02:01.895 
  <font color="#00ffff">liebe Leute im Studio</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und natürlich an den Bildschirmen -</font>

  34
  00:02:02.537 --> 00:02:04.206 
  <font color="#00ffff">zu Hause darf man</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ja nicht mehr sagen,</font>

  35
  00:02:04.846 --> 00:02:07.143 
  <font color="#00ffff">denn man kann diese Sendung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">überall auch unterwegs schauen.</font>

  36
  00:02:07.784 --> 00:02:09.973 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich freue mich auf diese Sendung,</font>

  37
  00:02:10.614 --> 00:02:12.563 
  <font color="#00ffff">denn es gibt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein paar ganz aktuelle Themen,</font>

  38
  00:02:13.205 --> 00:02:15.083 
  <font color="#00ffff">die wir heute Abend</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">besprechen müssen.</font>

  39
  00:02:15.724 --> 00:02:17.151 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darf der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den Atomausstieg kippen,</font>

  40
  00:02:17.793 --> 00:02:19.532 
  <font color="#00ffff">nur sieben Jahre</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach der Abstimmung an der Urne?</font>

  41
  00:02:20.174 --> 00:02:22.713 
  <font color="#00ffff">Hat die neue Kernkraftinitiative</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein Problem, weil sie u.a.</font>

  42
  00:02:23.353 --> 00:02:25.543 
  <font color="#00ffff">mit gekauften Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zustande gekommen ist,</font>

  43
  00:02:26.184 --> 00:02:27.733 
  <font color="#00ffff">oder hat sie das nicht?</font>

  44
  00:02:28.374 --> 00:02:29.903 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und über allem die grosse Frage:</font>

  45
  00:02:30.544 --> 00:02:32.573 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es neue Kernkraftwerke</font>

  46
  00:02:33.215 --> 00:02:34.668 
  <font color="#00ffff">oder braucht es diese nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für die Schweiz?</font>

  47
  00:02:35.310 --> 00:02:37.013 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das ist ja eigentlich legitim,</font>

  48
  00:02:37.654 --> 00:02:39.632 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass man sich diese Frage in der</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Politik ab und zu, auch jetzt,</font>

  49
  00:02:40.278 --> 00:02:41.983 
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder stellt.</font>

  50
  00:02:42.624 --> 00:02:45.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Legitim ist es schon,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Frage ist: Ist es opportun?</font>

  51
  00:02:45.851 --> 00:02:47.195 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und ist es gescheit?</font>

  52
  00:02:47.836 --> 00:02:49.993 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was der Bundesrat hier gemacht hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist nicht gescheit,</font>

  53
  00:02:50.635 --> 00:02:52.783 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht opportun, und ist eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch nicht ehrlich.</font>

  54
  00:02:53.424 --> 00:02:55.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn wenn der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zum Schluss kommt,</font>

  55
  00:02:55.704 --> 00:02:57.414 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass er die Strategie ändern will,</font>

  56
  00:02:58.054 --> 00:03:01.034 
  <font color="#ffffff">zurück zur Atomkraft will,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen den Willen der Bevölkerung,</font>

  57
  00:03:01.675 --> 00:03:04.136 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann müsste er der Bevölkerung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch reinen Wein einschenken,</font>

  58
  00:03:04.777 --> 00:03:07.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">ehrlich und transparent sein und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagen, wie er das finanzieren will.</font>

  59
  00:03:07.846 --> 00:03:10.823 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Volksinitiative zu nutzen,</font>

  60
  00:03:11.464 --> 00:03:13.262 
  <font color="#ffffff">um sozusagen mit einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">"Bubentrickli" zu sagen:</font>

  61
  00:03:13.905 --> 00:03:16.634 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Wir heben jetzt zuerst einmal</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Neubauverbot auf</font>

  62
  00:03:17.275 --> 00:03:19.065 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann schauen wir,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vielleicht gibt es ja Investoren."</font>

  63
  00:03:19.706 --> 00:03:21.673 
  <font color="#ffffff">Obwohl ja alle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich etwas auskennen, wissen,</font>

  64
  00:03:22.314 --> 00:03:23.753 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es AKW nur gibt,</font>

  65
  00:03:24.394 --> 00:03:26.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn der Staat selbst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">viele Milliarden investiert.</font>

  66
  00:03:26.704 --> 00:03:28.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und eigentlich müsse der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ehrlich mit der Bevölkerung sein</font>

  67
  00:03:29.403 --> 00:03:31.514 
  <font color="#ffffff">und schon jetzt sagen, wie er es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">finanzieren will, was es kostet -</font>

  68
  00:03:32.155 --> 00:03:33.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">und auf was man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dann verzichten muss.</font>

  69
  00:03:34.284 --> 00:03:36.133 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sieben Jahre nach dem Volksentscheid</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">alles wieder zu ändern,</font>

  70
  00:03:36.774 --> 00:03:39.273 
  <font color="#00ffff">das müsste für Sie, Michael Graber,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von der SVP,</font>

  71
  00:03:39.914 --> 00:03:42.715 
  <font color="#00ffff">die gerne</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit dem Volk argumentiert,</font>

  72
  00:03:43.356 --> 00:03:44.833 
  <font color="#00ffff">eigentlich ein No-Go sein.</font>

  73
  00:03:45.474 --> 00:03:47.174 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist jetzt eine ganz andere</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ausgangslage als damals.</font>

  74
  00:03:47.815 --> 00:03:49.362 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals die sog. Energiestrategie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Doris Leuthard,</font>

  75
  00:03:50.004 --> 00:03:52.704 
  <font color="#ffffff">das war gar keine Strategie,</font>

  76
  00:03:53.343 --> 00:03:54.796 
  <font color="#ffffff">denn eine Strategie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre ein genauer Plan</font>

  77
  00:03:55.434 --> 00:03:56.843 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Doris Leuthard</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hatte gar keinen Plan.</font>

  78
  00:03:57.484 --> 00:03:59.643 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Energiestrategie sah keine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vollständige Dekarbonisierung vor,</font>

  79
  00:04:00.286 --> 00:04:03.333 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie das Volk dies letztes Jahr mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Annahme des Klimaschutzes wollte.</font>

  80
  00:04:03.974 --> 00:04:05.974 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das Klimaschutzgesetz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">führt jetzt dazu,</font>

  81
  00:04:06.615 --> 00:04:08.582 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir massiv mehr Strom</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">brauchen.</font>

  82
  00:04:09.224 --> 00:04:11.069 
  <font color="#ffffff">Danach haben wir aber viel mehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Einwohner in diesem Land</font>

  83
  00:04:11.684 --> 00:04:13.353 
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen der masslosen Zuwanderung.</font>

  84
  00:04:13.995 --> 00:04:16.673 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals ging Doris Leuthard davon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus, dass es bis 2050 9 Mio. sind,</font>

  85
  00:04:17.314 --> 00:04:19.012 
  <font color="#ffffff">schon heute haben wir 9 Mio.</font>

  86
  00:04:19.654 --> 00:04:21.672 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis 2050 werden es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über 10 Mio. Leute sein.</font>

  87
  00:04:22.313 --> 00:04:24.832 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die sog. Energiestrategie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ging davon aus,</font>

  88
  00:04:25.473 --> 00:04:27.262 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir Gaskraftwerke</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">brauchen können,</font>

  89
  00:04:27.903 --> 00:04:30.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">das steht sogar in einer Botschaft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu dieser Energiestrategie.</font>

  90
  00:04:30.705 --> 00:04:33.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das können wir nicht nutzen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen dem Netto-Null-Ziel.</font>

  91
  00:04:33.703 --> 00:04:36.614 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem ist die geopolitische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Situation ganz eine andere,</font>

  92
  00:04:37.256 --> 00:04:39.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">der Russland-Ukraine-Krieg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat dazu geführt,</font>

  93
  00:04:40.095 --> 00:04:42.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir in Deutschland kein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gasstrom mehr in dem Masse haben</font>

  94
  00:04:42.804 --> 00:04:44.252 
  <font color="#ffffff">und schliesslich müssen wir sagen,</font>

  95
  00:04:44.894 --> 00:04:48.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass alles andere von Links-Grünen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Organisationen blockiert wird.</font>

  96
  00:04:49.326 --> 00:04:51.183 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich an das Gornerli in meinem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Heimatskanton Wallis denke,</font>

  97
  00:04:51.825 --> 00:04:53.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder an ...</font>

  98
  00:04:54.124 --> 00:04:55.683 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist viel was Sie hier aufzählen.</font>

  99
  00:04:56.324 --> 00:04:59.043 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich will nur noch kurz etwas sagen.</font>

  100
  00:04:59.683 --> 00:05:01.943 
  <font color="#00ffff">Heute Morgen gab es beim Newsportal</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">"Watson" eine Umfrage</font>

  101
  00:05:02.585 --> 00:05:04.682 
  <font color="#00ffff">bei über 7'000 Schweizerinnen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Schweizern,</font>

  102
  00:05:05.323 --> 00:05:06.933 
  <font color="#00ffff">also eine repräsentative Umfrage.</font>

  103
  00:05:07.574 --> 00:05:10.963 
  <font color="#00ffff">Man sieht, dass 51 % der</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweizerinnen und Schweizer sagen:</font>

  104
  00:05:11.605 --> 00:05:13.472 
  <font color="#00ffff">Nein oder eher Nein zu neuen AKW.</font>

  105
  00:05:14.113 --> 00:05:15.912 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nach meiner Erinnerung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat der "Blick"</font>

  106
  00:05:16.553 --> 00:05:18.072 
  <font color="#ffffff">vor etwas mehr als einem Jahr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Umfrage gemacht,</font>

  107
  00:05:18.714 --> 00:05:20.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">die eher zustimmend war.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir werden es sehen.</font>

  108
  00:05:20.804 --> 00:05:22.268 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird sicher ein Referendum geben,</font>

  109
  00:05:22.909 --> 00:05:24.269 
  <font color="#ffffff">denn der Bundesrat hat nichts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu entscheiden.</font>

  110
  00:05:24.910 --> 00:05:26.403 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist ein Gesetz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das wir anpassen müssen.</font>

  111
  00:05:27.044 --> 00:05:28.844 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es muss zuerst durch den National-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Ständerat durchgehen.</font>

  112
  00:05:29.486 --> 00:05:31.082 
  <font color="#ffffff">Danach kommt es sicher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu einem fakultativen Referendum.</font>

  113
  00:05:31.723 --> 00:05:33.442 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich begrüsse es, dass es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu einer Abstimmung kommen wird.</font>

  114
  00:05:34.082 --> 00:05:35.733 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Volk kann dann sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob es mit den Informationen,</font>

  115
  00:05:36.374 --> 00:05:38.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">die es jetzt hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die auf dem Tisch liegen ...</font>

  116
  00:05:39.046 --> 00:05:40.953 
  <font color="#ffffff">denn damals ist man, nicht nur</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von der Bevölkerungszahl her,</font>

  117
  00:05:41.594 --> 00:05:43.023 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern auch preislich,</font>

  118
  00:05:43.664 --> 00:05:45.103 
  <font color="#ffffff">von einer ganz anderen Zahl</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgegangen -</font>

  119
  00:05:45.744 --> 00:05:48.232 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann kann das Volk sagen, ob es mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Fakten, die auf dem Tisch sind,</font>

  120
  00:05:48.873 --> 00:05:50.475 
  <font color="#ffffff">nach wie vor ein AKW-Verbot will</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder nicht.</font>

  121
  00:05:51.116 --> 00:05:53.232 
  <font color="#00ffff">Priska Wismer, der Energieminister</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Albert Rösti sagt nicht,</font>

  122
  00:05:53.873 --> 00:05:56.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass er neue AKW will, sondern,</font>

  123
  00:05:56.769 --> 00:05:58.783 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass man sich alle technologischen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Optionen offen halten muss.</font>

  124
  00:05:59.424 --> 00:06:02.413 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, so kann man ein Stück weit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Leute gnädig stimmen.</font>

  125
  00:06:03.054 --> 00:06:07.423 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ehrlich wäre, zu sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Initiative wurde eingereicht,</font>

  126
  00:06:08.065 --> 00:06:12.962 
  <font color="#ffffff">über diese stimmen wir jetzt ab.</font>

  127
  00:06:13.604 --> 00:06:15.238 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diesen Umweg über einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gegenvorschlag zu machen,</font>

  128
  00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">der bedeutet,</font>

  129
  00:06:18.766 --> 00:06:21.604 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Volk zuerst wieder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Referendum ergreifen müsste,</font>

  130
  00:06:22.246 --> 00:06:24.742 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit man darüber abstimmen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kann, finde ich nicht korrekt.</font>

  131
  00:06:25.383 --> 00:06:27.202 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man ehrlich sein will, ...</font>

  132
  00:06:27.843 --> 00:06:29.292 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber das gibt es ja immer wieder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">im Politbetrieb,</font>

  133
  00:06:29.933 --> 00:06:32.352 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass der Bundesrat eben einen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Gegenvorschlag zur Initiative</font>

  134
  00:06:32.993 --> 00:06:35.299 
  <font color="#00ffff">definiert.</font>

  135
  00:06:35.940 --> 00:06:37.793 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, nur, in diesem Fall haben wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Entscheid vom Volk,</font>

  136
  00:06:38.433 --> 00:06:39.903 
  <font color="#ffffff">der gefällt wurde.</font>

  137
  00:06:40.544 --> 00:06:42.012 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist noch nicht lange her,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sieben Jahre.</font>

  138
  00:06:42.653 --> 00:06:47.032 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man die Leute fragen will,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob sie das heute anders sehen,</font>

  139
  00:06:47.674 --> 00:06:50.192 
  <font color="#ffffff">erwarte ich vom Bundesrat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass er sagt -</font>

  140
  00:06:50.832 --> 00:06:53.262 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn er diese tatsächlich will -</font>

  141
  00:06:53.903 --> 00:06:58.026 
  <font color="#ffffff">hätte er eine Zustimmung zu dieser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Initiative machen und sagen können,</font>

  142
  00:06:58.668 --> 00:07:00.192 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass er sie vorlegt.</font>

  143
  00:07:00.833 --> 00:07:02.672 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber er lehnt die Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selbst ab und versucht,</font>

  144
  00:07:03.313 --> 00:07:05.712 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit gewissen ...</font>

  145
  00:07:06.353 --> 00:07:10.583 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wo wir auch noch nicht genau wissen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was er denn eigentlich will.</font>

  146
  00:07:11.223 --> 00:07:17.432 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das wird ein langer Prozess. Das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt Unsicherheit auf diesem Weg,</font>

  147
  00:07:18.073 --> 00:07:19.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">den wir jetzt eingeschlagen haben,</font>

  148
  00:07:20.283 --> 00:07:22.132 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo wir erst vor drei Monaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darüber abgestimmt haben.</font>

  149
  00:07:22.774 --> 00:07:24.312 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt müssen wir vorwärts schauen.</font>

  150
  00:07:24.953 --> 00:07:28.586 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen Leaderfiguren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die genau sagen, wo wir hingehen.</font>

  151
  00:07:29.227 --> 00:07:31.352 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt haben wir eine Nebelpertarde,</font>

  152
  00:07:31.994 --> 00:07:34.972 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wieder alles ...</font>

  153
  00:07:35.613 --> 00:07:39.272 
  <font color="#00ffff">Susanne Vincenz, macht Ihnen das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">keine Angst, diese Unsicherheit,</font>

  154
  00:07:39.913 --> 00:07:41.842 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Priska Wismer anspricht?</font>

  155
  00:07:42.483 --> 00:07:45.002 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind Präsidentin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">des Wasserwirtschaftsverbandes</font>

  156
  00:07:45.644 --> 00:07:48.502 
  <font color="#00ffff">und pushen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die erneuerbaren Energien,</font>

  157
  00:07:49.144 --> 00:07:51.252 
  <font color="#00ffff">und trotzdem sind Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht gegen neue Atomkraftwerke.</font>

  158
  00:07:51.893 --> 00:07:54.502 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist das kein Widerspruch in sich?</font>

  159
  00:07:55.143 --> 00:07:58.293 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, das ist das Eine tun</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das Andere nicht lassen,</font>

  160
  00:07:58.933 --> 00:08:01.581 
  <font color="#ffffff">und V.a. die Versorgungssicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Blick haben.</font>

  161
  00:08:02.222 --> 00:08:04.562 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat für mich oberste Priorität.</font>

  162
  00:08:05.203 --> 00:08:07.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und was nur schon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Risiko einer Mangellage</font>

  163
  00:08:08.404 --> 00:08:10.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">an Unsicherheit bedeuten kann,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben wir erlebt.</font>

  164
  00:08:11.172 --> 00:08:13.864 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben erlebt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es ist für unsere Wirtschaft,</font>

  165
  00:08:14.505 --> 00:08:15.942 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber auch für uns alle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bürgerinnen und Bürger,</font>

  166
  00:08:16.582 --> 00:08:18.148 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo wir davon ausgehen mussten,</font>

  167
  00:08:18.789 --> 00:08:20.562 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass uns der Strom</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">knapp werden könnte.</font>

  168
  00:08:21.204 --> 00:08:22.720 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und deshalb muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Versorgungssicherheit</font>

  169
  00:08:23.361 --> 00:08:24.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">an erster Stelle stehen.</font>

  170
  00:08:25.413 --> 00:08:27.132 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und trotzdem, vor vier Jahren</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">waren Sie noch gegen AKW,</font>

  171
  00:08:27.773 --> 00:08:29.410 
  <font color="#00ffff">was ist da passiert?</font>

  172
  00:08:30.051 --> 00:08:33.029 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau, da ist v.a. auf der Welt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr viel passiert.</font>

  173
  00:08:33.669 --> 00:08:35.157 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor vier Jahren sagte ich -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sogar an diesem Pult -</font>

  174
  00:08:35.798 --> 00:08:37.822 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass ich gegen die Aufhebung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Neubauverbots bin,</font>

  175
  00:08:38.462 --> 00:08:40.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">den damals ging es darum,</font>

  176
  00:08:41.334 --> 00:08:43.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jetzt auf den Weg zu bringen.</font>

  177
  00:08:44.092 --> 00:08:46.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir waren stark im Rückstand,</font>

  178
  00:08:46.647 --> 00:08:48.822 
  <font color="#ffffff">mussten klar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Bekenntnis abgeben,</font>

  179
  00:08:49.463 --> 00:08:50.902 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgebaut werden müssen.</font>

  180
  00:08:51.543 --> 00:08:54.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht nur Wasser,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern auch Wind und Solar.</font>

  181
  00:08:54.933 --> 00:09:05.572 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit dem Stromgesetz haben wir jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diesen Pflock eingeschlagen.</font>

  182
  00:09:06.213 --> 00:09:07.744 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diesen Riesen-Booster,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den es auch gebraucht hat.</font>

  183
  00:09:08.385 --> 00:09:10.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieser Weg ist jetzt vorgegeben.</font>

  184
  00:09:10.763 --> 00:09:13.272 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und jetzt bin ich sozusagen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">befreiter, den ich kann sagen,</font>

  185
  00:09:13.913 --> 00:09:15.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das, was damals</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">meine grosse Priorität war,</font>

  186
  00:09:15.933 --> 00:09:17.412 
  <font color="#ffffff">nämlich, die Erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf den Weg zu bringen,</font>

  187
  00:09:18.053 --> 00:09:19.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">jetzt geschafft ist.</font>

  188
  00:09:20.254 --> 00:09:22.432 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt müssen wir das Visier öffnen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Sinne der Versorgungssicherheit.</font>

  189
  00:09:23.073 --> 00:09:24.512 
  <font color="#00ffff">"Damals", das ist für mich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das Stichwort.</font>

  190
  00:09:25.153 --> 00:09:27.102 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Atomausstieg war 2011 von heute</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf morgen plötzlich en vogue</font>

  191
  00:09:27.743 --> 00:09:29.312 
  <font color="#00ffff">nach der Atomkatastrophe</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Fukushima in Japan.</font>

  192
  00:09:29.953 --> 00:09:31.422 
  <font color="#00ffff">Heute stehen wir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">an einem ganz anderen Ort</font>

  193
  00:09:32.063 --> 00:09:34.362 
  <font color="#00ffff">und deshalb</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">jetzt etwas Geschichte.</font>

  194
  00:09:36.437 --> 00:09:40.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">2011 treiben Bundesrat und Parlament</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den schrittweisen Ausstieg</font>

  195
  00:09:40.933 --> 00:09:42.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Kernenergie voran -</font>

  196
  00:09:43.486 --> 00:09:45.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Nachgang zur Nuklearkatastrophe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Fukushima.</font>

  197
  00:09:46.584 --> 00:09:49.352 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Mai desselben Jahres verkündet</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die damalige Energieministerin</font>

  198
  00:09:49.994 --> 00:09:51.602 
  <font color="#ffffff">Doris Leuthard:</font>

  199
  00:09:52.244 --> 00:09:57.652 
  <font color="#ffff00">Deshalb ist der Bundesrat überzeugt,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dass das Szenario 2, also</font>

  200
  00:09:58.293 --> 00:10:00.772 
  <font color="#ffff00">ein schrittweiser Ausstieg</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">aus der Kernenergie,</font>

  201
  00:10:01.413 --> 00:10:04.356 
  <font color="#ffff00">der richtige Schritt</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist für die Zukunft.</font>

  202
  00:10:04.997 --> 00:10:10.062 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sechs Jahre später, 2017,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heisst die Bevölkerung an der Urne</font>

  203
  00:10:10.703 --> 00:10:15.512 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Energiestrategie 2050</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit über 58 % Ja-Stimmen gut.</font>

  204
  00:10:16.153 --> 00:10:18.071 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damit wird u.a.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Bau neuer Kernkraftwerke</font>

  205
  00:10:18.712 --> 00:10:20.982 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz verboten.</font>

  206
  00:10:22.344 --> 00:10:27.020 
  <font color="#ffffff">2022 droht der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Strommangellage.</font>

  207
  00:10:27.661 --> 00:10:30.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kritik an der Energiestrategie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Bundes wird laut.</font>

  208
  00:10:31.334 --> 00:10:35.333 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im selben Jahr lanciert ein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bürgerliches Komitee die Initiative</font>

  209
  00:10:35.975 --> 00:10:37.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Blackout stoppen".</font>

  210
  00:10:38.403 --> 00:10:41.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie verlangt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Bau neuer Atomkraftwerke</font>

  211
  00:10:42.403 --> 00:10:44.262 
  <font color="#ffffff">wieder erlaubt wird.</font>

  212
  00:10:44.903 --> 00:10:48.821 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Stromproduktion soll umwelt-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und klimaschonend erfolgen.</font>

  213
  00:10:50.830 --> 00:10:56.512 
  <font color="#ffffff">August 2024: Der Bundesrat lehnt die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Initiative "Blackout stoppen" ab.</font>

  214
  00:10:57.154 --> 00:10:58.612 
  <font color="#ffffff">Stattdessen will er dem Parlament</font>

  215
  00:10:59.253 --> 00:11:01.268 
  <font color="#ffffff">einen indirekten Gegenvorschlag</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterbreiten.</font>

  216
  00:11:01.909 --> 00:11:05.261 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieser sieht vor, das bestehende</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Neubauverbot für Kernkraftwerke</font>

  217
  00:11:05.902 --> 00:11:07.801 
  <font color="#ffffff">aufzuheben.</font>

  218
  00:11:09.414 --> 00:11:12.763 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Energie Club Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hat diese Initiative lanciert</font>

  219
  00:11:13.404 --> 00:11:15.522 
  <font color="#00ffff">und vom Energie Club Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist Vanessa Meury hier,</font>

  220
  00:11:16.163 --> 00:11:17.642 
  <font color="#00ffff">herzlich willkommen.</font>

  221
  00:11:18.284 --> 00:11:21.391 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind Präsidentin, sind aber auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">im Präsidium der SVP Solothurn.</font>

  222
  00:11:22.032 --> 00:11:25.494 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Bundesrat sagt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">er wolle die Initiative nicht,</font>

  223
  00:11:26.136 --> 00:11:30.132 
  <font color="#00ffff">er hat jetzt den Gegenvorschlag</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ausgearbeitet resp. definiert.</font>

  224
  00:11:30.773 --> 00:11:33.452 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es denn diese Initiative</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">überhaupt noch?</font>

  225
  00:11:34.095 --> 00:11:37.052 
  <font color="#008000">Ja, wir begrüssen, dass er den</font>
  <font color="#008000">Gesetzesartikel streichen will.</font>

  226
  00:11:37.694 --> 00:11:40.371 
  <font color="#008000">Dennoch finden wir, dass wir noch</font>
  <font color="#008000">andere wesentliche Punkte</font>

  227
  00:11:41.013 --> 00:11:42.883 
  <font color="#008000">in unserer Initiative haben,</font>

  228
  00:11:43.525 --> 00:11:45.210 
  <font color="#008000">die in diesem Gegenvorschlag</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht berücksichtigt sind.</font>

  229
  00:11:45.851 --> 00:11:48.314 
  <font color="#008000">Zum einen, wer verantwortlich für</font>
  <font color="#008000">die Stromversorgungssicherheit ist.</font>

  230
  00:11:48.956 --> 00:11:50.737 
  <font color="#008000">Und daran möchten wir festhalten.</font>

  231
  00:11:51.376 --> 00:11:53.282 
  <font color="#00ffff">Heisst aber nicht, dass Sie diese</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">irgendwann zurückziehen,</font>

  232
  00:11:53.923 --> 00:11:55.432 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn Sie mit einem Gegenvorschlag</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einverstanden wären.</font>

  233
  00:11:56.073 --> 00:11:57.501 
  <font color="#008000">Nein, das lassen wir offen.</font>

  234
  00:11:58.142 --> 00:11:59.631 
  <font color="#008000">Zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt</font>
  <font color="#008000">wurde der Gegenvorschlag</font>

  235
  00:12:00.272 --> 00:12:01.700 
  <font color="#008000">einmal so kommuniziert,</font>

  236
  00:12:02.342 --> 00:12:03.931 
  <font color="#008000">dass es um die Streichung</font>
  <font color="#008000">dieses Gesetzesartikels geht</font>

  237
  00:12:04.573 --> 00:12:06.032 
  <font color="#008000">und das begrüssen wir natürlich.</font>

  238
  00:12:06.673 --> 00:12:08.643 
  <font color="#008000">Aber wir ziehen Sie zum jetzigen</font>
  <font color="#008000">Standpunkt noch nicht zurück.</font>

  239
  00:12:09.285 --> 00:12:11.354 
  <font color="#00ffff">Schauen wir zurück, 21. Mai 2017.</font>

  240
  00:12:11.995 --> 00:12:17.111 
  <font color="#00ffff">Grosse Abstimmung, mit 58 % hat die</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweizer Stimmbevölkerung gesagt,</font>

  241
  00:12:17.752 --> 00:12:20.141 
  <font color="#00ffff">sie wolle</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">keine neuen AKW mehr bauen.</font>

  242
  00:12:20.783 --> 00:12:23.682 
  <font color="#00ffff">58 % ist viel,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nehmen Sie diese nicht ernst,</font>

  243
  00:12:24.322 --> 00:12:27.272 
  <font color="#00ffff">diese Bürgerinnen und Bürger,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die so entschieden haben?</font>

  244
  00:12:27.913 --> 00:12:32.352 
  <font color="#008000">Zuerst einmal war es mit 58 % kein</font>
  <font color="#008000">Nein zum Ausstieg der Atomenergie,</font>

  245
  00:12:32.993 --> 00:12:35.223 
  <font color="#008000">sondern</font>
  <font color="#008000">es war für die Energiestrategie,</font>

  246
  00:12:35.865 --> 00:12:37.251 
  <font color="#008000">die ein Teil davon war,</font>

  247
  00:12:37.892 --> 00:12:39.492 
  <font color="#008000">dass man schrittweise</font>
  <font color="#008000">aus der Kernenergie aussteigt.</font>

  248
  00:12:40.132 --> 00:12:42.492 
  <font color="#008000">Was die Damen und Herren der Politik</font>
  <font color="#008000">immer wieder vergessen zu erwähnen,</font>

  249
  00:12:43.131 --> 00:12:44.662 
  <font color="#008000">ist, dass man vorher</font>

  250
  00:12:45.303 --> 00:12:47.302 
  <font color="#008000">vier Abstimmungen</font>
  <font color="#008000">nur um das Thema Atomausstieg hatte,</font>

  251
  00:12:47.943 --> 00:12:50.201 
  <font color="#008000">und dort wurde es jedes Mal</font>
  <font color="#008000">ganz klar vom Volk abgelehnt.</font>

  252
  00:12:50.842 --> 00:12:52.861 
  <font color="#008000">D.h., das Volk sagte Ja</font>
  <font color="#008000">zu Kernkraftwerken.</font>

  253
  00:12:53.502 --> 00:12:55.371 
  <font color="#008000">Und daran halten wir fest, plus das,</font>

  254
  00:12:56.012 --> 00:12:57.702 
  <font color="#008000">was Nationalrat Graber</font>
  <font color="#008000">zu Beginn erwähnt hat,</font>

  255
  00:12:58.342 --> 00:13:02.273 
  <font color="#008000">die Dekarbonisierung war in der</font>
  <font color="#008000">Strategie nicht berücksichtigt.</font>

  256
  00:13:02.914 --> 00:13:05.232 
  <font color="#008000">Wir haben ein</font>
  <font color="#008000">Versorgungssicherheitsproblem</font>

  257
  00:13:05.873 --> 00:13:08.601 
  <font color="#008000">und das ist oberste Priorität,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dem müssen wir gerecht werden.</font>

  258
  00:13:09.242 --> 00:13:11.201 
  <font color="#008000">Und das können wir nur</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit Bandenergie</font>

  259
  00:13:11.842 --> 00:13:15.121 
  <font color="#008000">und diese liefert zum jetzigen</font>
  <font color="#008000">Zeitpunkt nur die Kernenergie.</font>

  260
  00:13:15.762 --> 00:13:18.422 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gioia Benninger,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vom Vorstand Allianz Atomausstieg,</font>

  261
  00:13:19.063 --> 00:13:21.972 
  <font color="#00ffff">sieht das natürlich ganz anders.</font>

  262
  00:13:22.614 --> 00:13:25.791 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind Co-Präsidentin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Jungen Grünen in Bern.</font>

  263
  00:13:26.432 --> 00:13:28.216 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist so, dass die schweizerische</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Demokratie lebt</font>

  264
  00:13:28.857 --> 00:13:31.811 
  <font color="#00ffff">und es ist doch auch das gute Recht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von allen politischen Kräften</font>

  265
  00:13:32.453 --> 00:13:34.442 
  <font color="#00ffff">zu sagen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass sie das heute ganz anders sehen</font>

  266
  00:13:35.082 --> 00:13:37.081 
  <font color="#00ffff">und wieder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">über eine solche Frage nachdenken.</font>

  267
  00:13:37.723 --> 00:13:40.691 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ja, man kann auch zu jedem Thema</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">immer wieder Initiativen lancieren.</font>

  268
  00:13:41.332 --> 00:13:44.532 
  <font color="#ffff00">Sonst wäre es keine Demokratie,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">an sich gar kein Problem.</font>

  269
  00:13:45.173 --> 00:13:47.243 
  <font color="#ffff00">Problematisch ist jedoch</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das Verhalten des Bundesrats,</font>

  270
  00:13:47.884 --> 00:13:50.023 
  <font color="#ffff00">der einen indirekten Gegenvorschlag</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">gebracht hat,</font>

  271
  00:13:50.665 --> 00:13:53.371 
  <font color="#ffff00">der erstens ähnlich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist wie die Initiative</font>

  272
  00:13:54.012 --> 00:13:58.991 
  <font color="#ffff00">und auch das Ja von 2017, das noch</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht lange her ist, ignoriert.</font>

  273
  00:13:59.632 --> 00:14:02.615 
  <font color="#ffff00">Was die Bevölkerung will,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">was die Umfrage auch bestätigt,</font>

  274
  00:14:03.256 --> 00:14:05.471 
  <font color="#ffff00">die Bevölkerung will keine neue AKW.</font>

  275
  00:14:06.112 --> 00:14:10.081 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mich interessiert, Susanne Vincenz,</font>

  276
  00:14:10.725 --> 00:14:12.272 
  <font color="#00ffff">das ist ein wichtiger Punkt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den sie angesprochen hat.</font>

  277
  00:14:12.912 --> 00:14:15.293 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn eine Initiative kommt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist es das Recht von uns allen,</font>

  278
  00:14:15.935 --> 00:14:17.381 
  <font color="#00ffff">diese zu lancieren.</font>

  279
  00:14:18.022 --> 00:14:19.491 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist es nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">demokratiepolitisch schwierig,</font>

  280
  00:14:20.132 --> 00:14:22.723 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn der Bundesrat jetzt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder zurückkommt?</font>

  281
  00:14:23.364 --> 00:14:28.574 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, denn der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entscheidet nicht alleine,</font>

  282
  00:14:29.214 --> 00:14:32.321 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern er hat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unter den sieben Personen beraten</font>

  283
  00:14:32.962 --> 00:14:35.051 
  <font color="#ffffff">und ist zum Schluss gekommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie jetzt hier</font>

  284
  00:14:35.692 --> 00:14:38.482 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Element aus dieser Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entfernen wollen</font>

  285
  00:14:39.123 --> 00:14:41.161 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dieses in den indirekten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gegenvorschlag einfügen wollen.</font>

  286
  00:14:41.802 --> 00:14:45.361 
  <font color="#ffffff">D.h., der Bundesrat wird jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine entsprechende Vorlage vorlegen.</font>

  287
  00:14:46.003 --> 00:14:48.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist Punkt 1.</font>

  288
  00:14:48.808 --> 00:14:50.194 
  <font color="#ffffff">Punkt 2 ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es kommt zu uns ins Parlament.</font>

  289
  00:14:50.835 --> 00:14:52.913 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann werden wir, wahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heftig, darüber diskutieren</font>

  290
  00:14:53.555 --> 00:14:55.036 
  <font color="#ffffff">und irgendwann werden wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Gegenvorschlag</font>

  291
  00:14:55.683 --> 00:14:57.183 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schlussabstimmung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entweder annehmen,</font>

  292
  00:14:57.824 --> 00:14:59.261 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder ihn versenken.</font>

  293
  00:14:59.902 --> 00:15:01.401 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir ihn annehmen,</font>

  294
  00:15:02.043 --> 00:15:04.316 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die Möglichkeit des fakultativen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Referendums, 50'000 Unterschriften,</font>

  295
  00:15:04.957 --> 00:15:06.653 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann wird das Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darüber entscheiden.</font>

  296
  00:15:07.294 --> 00:15:10.119 
  <font color="#ffffff">Demokratiepolitisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">überhaupt kein Problem.</font>

  297
  00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:14.021 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Wismer) Das sehe ich natürlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas anders.</font>

  298
  00:15:14.662 --> 00:15:21.513 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Prozess, den Susanne Vincenz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beschrieben hat, dauert Jahre.</font>

  299
  00:15:22.156 --> 00:15:24.431 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und in all diesen Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es genau diese Unsicherheit,</font>

  300
  00:15:25.072 --> 00:15:26.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">die jetzt Gift ist.</font>

  301
  00:15:27.172 --> 00:15:28.653 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben die Piste ausgelegt,</font>

  302
  00:15:29.294 --> 00:15:31.052 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Versorgungssicherheit kommen.</font>

  303
  00:15:31.693 --> 00:15:35.091 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir können das mit den erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energien machen.</font>

  304
  00:15:35.732 --> 00:15:39.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben eine ganze Palette davon,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und diese müssen wir alle nutzen.</font>

  305
  00:15:40.332 --> 00:15:43.870 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir jetzt mit so einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gegenvorschlag die Unsicherheit,</font>

  306
  00:15:44.513 --> 00:15:46.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch in der Branche ...</font>

  307
  00:15:46.891 --> 00:15:49.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben rund 50'000 Unternehmen,</font>

  308
  00:15:50.172 --> 00:15:53.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">die im Bereich der erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energien tätig sind,</font>

  309
  00:15:53.932 --> 00:15:56.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dort jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vorwärts machen wollen.</font>

  310
  00:15:57.372 --> 00:15:59.314 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Piste haben wir ausgelegt,</font>

  311
  00:15:59.955 --> 00:16:02.030 
  <font color="#ffffff">vielleicht fehlt noch eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Leitplanke oder eine Mittellinie,</font>

  312
  00:16:02.671 --> 00:16:06.501 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber sie wäre da und jetzt werden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schon wieder die ersten Schlaglöcher</font>

  313
  00:16:07.142 --> 00:16:08.773 
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Piste reingemacht.</font>

  314
  00:16:09.414 --> 00:16:12.311 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dadurch, dass wir den Leuten immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wieder in den Hinterkopf setzen:</font>

  315
  00:16:12.952 --> 00:16:14.932 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Wenn ihr das nicht wollt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machen wir dann irgendwann</font>

  316
  00:16:15.573 --> 00:16:19.471 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Atomkraftwerk."</font>

  317
  00:16:20.112 --> 00:16:22.511 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ohne zu wissen, wie das aussehen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">würde, wo es stehen würde,</font>

  318
  00:16:23.152 --> 00:16:24.851 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo es herkommen würde,</font>

  319
  00:16:25.492 --> 00:16:27.501 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie teuer es wäre.</font>

  320
  00:16:28.142 --> 00:16:30.220 
  <font color="#00ffff">Also viele ungeklärte Fragen.</font>

  321
  00:16:30.853 --> 00:16:33.221 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Vincenz) Das war genau</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mein einleitende Votum.</font>

  322
  00:16:33.863 --> 00:16:36.431 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor einem Jahr, also vor der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Abstimmung zum Stromgesetz,</font>

  323
  00:16:37.071 --> 00:16:39.491 
  <font color="#ffffff">wären wir wahrscheinlich sogar recht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nahe in der Argumentation gewesen.</font>

  324
  00:16:40.133 --> 00:16:42.540 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Piste, und das haben Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selbst gesagt, ist gelegt.</font>

  325
  00:16:43.182 --> 00:16:44.691 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben uns die Ziele gesetzt.</font>

  326
  00:16:45.332 --> 00:16:47.671 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt geht es darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Branche das auch umsetzt.</font>

  327
  00:16:48.312 --> 00:16:49.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist völlig klar.</font>

  328
  00:16:50.532 --> 00:16:52.271 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Piste ist gelegt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Unsicherheit ist weg.</font>

  329
  00:16:52.912 --> 00:16:56.941 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt geht es darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir zwei Ziele haben:</font>

  330
  00:16:57.582 --> 00:16:59.953 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Netto-Null-Ziel 2050</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Versorgungssicherheit -</font>

  331
  00:17:00.594 --> 00:17:02.271 
  <font color="#ffffff">zumindest finde ich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das auch ein Ziel,</font>

  332
  00:17:02.912 --> 00:17:04.724 
  <font color="#ffffff">da sind wir uns</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wahrscheinlich auch einig.</font>

  333
  00:17:05.361 --> 00:17:09.342 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dort scheiden sich die Geister,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob die Erneuerbaren reichen,</font>

  334
  00:17:09.983 --> 00:17:11.390 
  <font color="#ffffff">um dieses Ziel zu erreichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder nicht.</font>

  335
  00:17:12.031 --> 00:17:13.751 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich würde sagen, dass genau das,</font>

  336
  00:17:14.392 --> 00:17:17.511 
  <font color="#ffffff">was jetzt diskutiert wird,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">betreffend neuer Kernkraftwerke,</font>

  337
  00:17:18.152 --> 00:17:21.241 
  <font color="#ffffff">den Erneuerbaren nochmals</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Schub geben müsste,</font>

  338
  00:17:21.882 --> 00:17:25.840 
  <font color="#ffffff">denn jetzt geht es darum zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beweisen, dass es ohne geht.</font>

  339
  00:17:26.483 --> 00:17:28.790 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das finde ich entscheidend.</font>

  340
  00:17:29.434 --> 00:17:31.660 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Das ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein grober analytischer Fehler.</font>

  341
  00:17:32.302 --> 00:17:36.331 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Situation ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass diese Leute, oftmals SVP-nahe,</font>

  342
  00:17:36.972 --> 00:17:38.631 
  <font color="#ffffff">fundamental gegen Windkraft sind.</font>

  343
  00:17:39.272 --> 00:17:41.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">Windkraft wird nicht die grösste</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energieproduktionsform sein,</font>

  344
  00:17:41.852 --> 00:17:43.543 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber gerade im Winter wichtig.</font>

  345
  00:17:44.184 --> 00:17:45.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind fundamental dagegen.</font>

  346
  00:17:46.291 --> 00:17:47.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese werden die Diskussion anführen</font>

  347
  00:17:48.411 --> 00:17:50.782 
  <font color="#ffffff">und es passiert genau das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was Priska Wismer gesagt hat,</font>

  348
  00:17:51.424 --> 00:17:52.975 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass am Schluss all jene,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die gegen diese Projekte sind -</font>

  349
  00:17:53.612 --> 00:17:55.712 
  <font color="#ffffff">obschon 70 % des Volkes eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja gesagt hat, versuchen können,</font>

  350
  00:17:56.353 --> 00:17:59.281 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sand ins Getriebe zu werfen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das zu hintertreiben,</font>

  351
  00:17:59.922 --> 00:18:01.571 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil man weiss,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass selbst der Bundesrat sagt,</font>

  352
  00:18:02.212 --> 00:18:03.640 
  <font color="#ffffff">es gäbe noch einen Plan B.</font>

  353
  00:18:04.281 --> 00:18:06.672 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was ich besonders</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verantwortungslos finde, ist,</font>

  354
  00:18:07.314 --> 00:18:10.311 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass dieser Plan B auch aus</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einer Versorgungssicherheitslogik</font>

  355
  00:18:10.952 --> 00:18:12.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Luftschloss ist.</font>

  356
  00:18:13.326 --> 00:18:16.111 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn selbst wenn das Schweizer Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja sagen würde,</font>

  357
  00:18:16.752 --> 00:18:18.331 
  <font color="#ffffff">zuerst zur Aufhebung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Neubauverbots,</font>

  358
  00:18:18.973 --> 00:18:21.065 
  <font color="#ffffff">danach zu einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Finanzierungssubventionsgesetz,</font>

  359
  00:18:21.702 --> 00:18:23.390 
  <font color="#ffffff">und danach zu einer Bewilligung,</font>

  360
  00:18:24.031 --> 00:18:28.593 
  <font color="#ffffff">selbst dann würde ein solches AKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vielleicht 2045 oder 2050 stehen.</font>

  361
  00:18:29.234 --> 00:18:33.051 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen unsere Versorgungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sicherheitsfragen bis 2035 lösen.</font>

  362
  00:18:33.693 --> 00:18:36.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">D.h., es ist so oder so keine Lösung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Versorgungssicherheit</font>

  363
  00:18:37.007 --> 00:18:38.672 
  <font color="#ffffff">in den nächsten 20 Jahren.</font>

  364
  00:18:39.312 --> 00:18:42.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wenn man es immer als Option</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">da hat, wie Bundesrat Rösti es sagt,</font>

  365
  00:18:42.851 --> 00:18:44.640 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann hintertreibt das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Bemühungen,</font>

  366
  00:18:45.282 --> 00:18:46.760 
  <font color="#ffffff">alle Projekte und Ziele</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu erreichen,</font>

  367
  00:18:47.402 --> 00:18:51.181 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu denen das Schweizer Volk mit 70 %</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zugestimmt hat vor drei Monaten.</font>

  368
  00:18:51.822 --> 00:18:53.611 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist es ein grober</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">politischer Fehler,</font>

  369
  00:18:54.252 --> 00:18:56.240 
  <font color="#ffffff">den der Bundesrat macht.</font>

  370
  00:18:56.881 --> 00:18:59.081 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Das war jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas Atomgeschwurbel.</font>

  371
  00:18:59.723 --> 00:19:01.590 
  <font color="#ffffff">Fakt ist, Nettobauzeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines Kernkraftwerks</font>

  372
  00:19:02.231 --> 00:19:05.831 
  <font color="#ffffff">erreicht man momentan</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in unter sechs Jahren.</font>

  373
  00:19:06.471 --> 00:19:09.591 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie können das Nachlesen.</font>

  374
  00:19:10.232 --> 00:19:19.880 
  <font color="#ffffff">U.a. in einer Studie,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die die ETH gemacht hat.</font>

  375
  00:19:20.521 --> 00:19:31.140 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  376
  00:19:31.782 --> 00:19:34.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir machen einen Solarexpress,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was wir in diesem Land</font>

  377
  00:19:35.412 --> 00:19:37.150 
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Energiesicherheit brauchen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ein Atomexpress.</font>

  378
  00:19:37.792 --> 00:19:40.741 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bewundere die Nibelungentreue</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einer Kollegin Prisma Wismer</font>

  379
  00:19:41.382 --> 00:19:43.541 
  <font color="#ffffff">gegenüber ihrer ehemaligen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundesrätin,</font>

  380
  00:19:44.182 --> 00:19:46.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das grenzt etwas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an Realitätsverweigerung.</font>

  381
  00:19:46.847 --> 00:19:48.760 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alles, was der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beschlossen hat,</font>

  382
  00:19:49.401 --> 00:19:51.220 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine Aufhebung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Technologieverbots.</font>

  383
  00:19:51.861 --> 00:19:54.660 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie eine Aufhebung von einem Verbot</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Unsicherheit führen soll,</font>

  384
  00:19:55.301 --> 00:19:57.550 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist mir ein Rätsel.</font>

  385
  00:19:58.192 --> 00:19:59.991 
  <font color="#00ffff">Diese Frage haben wir uns</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vorhin schon gestellt.</font>

  386
  00:20:00.833 --> 00:20:03.471 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was ich jetzt gerne tun würde:</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu unserem Publikum gehen.</font>

  387
  00:20:04.113 --> 00:20:05.710 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir machen am Mittwoch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">immer einen Aufruf für Leute,</font>

  388
  00:20:06.351 --> 00:20:07.870 
  <font color="#00ffff">die mitdiskutieren wollen.</font>

  389
  00:20:08.511 --> 00:20:10.227 
  <font color="#00ffff">Diese zwei Herren</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">haben sich gemeldet.</font>

  390
  00:20:10.869 --> 00:20:15.031 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ueli Aebersold</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus Bänk (Dägerlen)/ZH</font>

  391
  00:20:15.673 --> 00:20:21.131 
  <font color="#00ffff">und Christian Bär aus Rothrist,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus dem Kernkraftwerkskanton Aargau.</font>

  392
  00:20:21.773 --> 00:20:24.120 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herr Aebersold,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie finden nicht gut,</font>

  393
  00:20:24.761 --> 00:20:26.512 
  <font color="#00ffff">was der Bundesrat tut,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Energieminister Albert Rösti.</font>

  394
  00:20:27.153 --> 00:20:28.590 
  <font color="#00ffff">Weshalb nicht?</font>

  395
  00:20:29.231 --> 00:20:31.140 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir haben es mehrfach gehört.</font>

  396
  00:20:31.782 --> 00:20:35.200 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir hatten die Abstimmung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">vor gut sieben Jahren</font>

  397
  00:20:35.842 --> 00:20:39.661 
  <font color="#ffff00">mit 58 % Ja-Anteil,</font>

  398
  00:20:40.302 --> 00:20:42.870 
  <font color="#ffff00">die sich gegen Kernkraftwerke</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ausgesprochen haben.</font>

  399
  00:20:43.511 --> 00:20:48.691 
  <font color="#ffff00">Dass der Bundesrat,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">um Bundesrat Albert Rösti</font>

  400
  00:20:49.331 --> 00:20:52.000 
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht nochmals</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">namentlich zu erwähnen,</font>

  401
  00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.741 
  <font color="#ffff00">die zehn Wörter beschlossen hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">mit einem Federstrich,</font>

  402
  00:20:56.382 --> 00:21:02.356 
  <font color="#ffff00">mit denen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der Gesetzesartikel eliminiert wird,</font>

  403
  00:21:02.997 --> 00:21:07.810 
  <font color="#ffff00">finde ich der Demokratie unwürdig.</font>

  404
  00:21:08.451 --> 00:21:10.520 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist eine Missachtung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">des Volkswillens.</font>

  405
  00:21:11.163 --> 00:21:17.031 
  <font color="#ffff00">Der korrekte Weg wäre: Der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">hätte einen Vorschlag gemacht,</font>

  406
  00:21:17.672 --> 00:21:19.400 
  <font color="#ffff00">über den das Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">hätte abstimmen können.</font>

  407
  00:21:20.042 --> 00:21:24.010 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das wird vielleicht mit der</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Blackout-Initiative der Fall sein.</font>

  408
  00:21:24.651 --> 00:21:28.130 
  <font color="#ffff00">So wie es jetzt war,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist es quasi ein Federstrich.</font>

  409
  00:21:28.771 --> 00:21:32.331 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sehen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">v.a. demokratiepolitische Probleme.</font>

  410
  00:21:32.973 --> 00:21:34.570 
  <font color="#00ffff">Christian Bär,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sehen es ganz anders,</font>

  411
  00:21:35.211 --> 00:21:36.740 
  <font color="#00ffff">unterstützen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den Energieminister Albert Rösti.</font>

  412
  00:21:37.381 --> 00:21:39.259 
  <font color="#00ffff">Auch bei euch die Frage: Weshalb?</font>

  413
  00:21:39.902 --> 00:21:42.230 
  <font color="#008000">Der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#008000">hat eine Verantwortung,</font>

  414
  00:21:42.871 --> 00:21:45.652 
  <font color="#008000">dass in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#008000">alles gut weiterlaufen kann,</font>

  415
  00:21:46.293 --> 00:21:49.567 
  <font color="#008000">wie es bisher läuft.</font>

  416
  00:21:50.208 --> 00:22:01.492 
  <font color="#008000">Er hat jetzt gesehen, dass man</font>
  <font color="#008000">bis 2050 mit der Energiepolitik,</font>

  417
  00:22:02.133 --> 00:22:07.759 
  <font color="#008000">die 2017 festgelegt wurde,</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht weiterkommt.</font>

  418
  00:22:08.401 --> 00:22:12.350 
  <font color="#008000">Die erneuerbaren Energien</font>
  <font color="#008000">kann man nicht in dem Tempo bauen,</font>

  419
  00:22:12.991 --> 00:22:17.328 
  <font color="#008000">wie man das dachte.</font>

  420
  00:22:17.969 --> 00:22:22.193 
  <font color="#008000">Man braucht ein Back-up</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit der Atomkraft.</font>

  421
  00:22:22.834 --> 00:22:27.970 
  <font color="#008000">Aufgrund dessen</font>
  <font color="#008000">hat man die jetzige Strategie -</font>

  422
  00:22:28.611 --> 00:22:32.120 
  <font color="#008000">ich denke nicht, dass der Bund sagt,</font>
  <font color="#008000">es sei eine Strategieänderung ...</font>

  423
  00:22:32.761 --> 00:22:34.560 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist eine Erweiterung.</font>

  424
  00:22:35.201 --> 00:22:38.090 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist eine Erweiterung,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass wir mit Atomkraft schauen,</font>

  425
  00:22:38.731 --> 00:22:41.530 
  <font color="#008000">dass man genug Strom hat bis 2050.</font>

  426
  00:22:42.174 --> 00:22:45.059 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sagen, es brauche alles,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">um guten Strom zu haben.</font>

  427
  00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:48.690 
  <font color="#008000">Darf ich noch etwas sagen?</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Wir kommen danach wieder.</font>

  428
  00:22:49.331 --> 00:22:51.530 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist aus meiner Sicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Illusion.</font>

  429
  00:22:52.171 --> 00:22:54.790 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kaufe Ihnen ab, dass Sie das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">so meinen und mit besten Absichten</font>

  430
  00:22:55.431 --> 00:22:57.557 
  <font color="#ffffff">unterwegs sind,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das ist wirklich eine Illusion.</font>

  431
  00:22:58.197 --> 00:23:01.519 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann in der Theorie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in einer Studie aufschreiben,</font>

  432
  00:23:02.161 --> 00:23:04.460 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es theoretisch möglich sei,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in sechs Jahren ein AKW zu bauen.</font>

  433
  00:23:05.101 --> 00:23:06.562 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Realität auf dem Terrain,</font>

  434
  00:23:07.203 --> 00:23:08.710 
  <font color="#ffffff">dort, wo in Europa</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch AKW gebaut werden,</font>

  435
  00:23:09.351 --> 00:23:10.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">in Frankreich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Grossbritannien, Finnland,</font>

  436
  00:23:11.412 --> 00:23:13.900 
  <font color="#ffffff">zeigt, dass es eher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jahrzehnte dauert - der reine Bau.</font>

  437
  00:23:14.541 --> 00:23:16.500 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dass es viel teurer wird</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als gedacht.</font>

  438
  00:23:17.141 --> 00:23:20.814 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das bekannteste Beispiel:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Flamanville im Atomland Frankreich.</font>

  439
  00:23:21.455 --> 00:23:23.030 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist vermutlich das wichtigste</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Atomland in Europa</font>

  440
  00:23:23.671 --> 00:23:25.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder sogar der Welt.</font>

  441
  00:23:25.771 --> 00:23:27.580 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie brauchten 21 Jahre.</font>

  442
  00:23:28.221 --> 00:23:30.421 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ursprünglich hätte es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">3,4 Mrd. kosten sollen,</font>

  443
  00:23:31.062 --> 00:23:32.700 
  <font color="#ffffff">der französische Rechnungshof</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat ausgerechnet,</font>

  444
  00:23:33.342 --> 00:23:35.289 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">19 Mrd. kosten wird.</font>

  445
  00:23:35.931 --> 00:23:38.941 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis heute wurde noch keine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kilowattstunde Strom produziert.</font>

  446
  00:23:39.582 --> 00:23:41.030 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht schaffen sie es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in den nächsten Monaten,</font>

  447
  00:23:41.671 --> 00:23:43.092 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer unglaublichen Verspätung</font>

  448
  00:23:43.733 --> 00:23:45.168 
  <font color="#ffffff">und einer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unglaublichen Kostenüberschreitung,</font>

  449
  00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:47.320 
  <font color="#ffffff">die der Steuerzahler trägt.</font>

  450
  00:23:47.961 --> 00:23:49.881 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist es kein Back-up</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in nützlicher Frist.</font>

  451
  00:23:50.522 --> 00:23:52.784 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen genug Strom bis 2035.</font>

  452
  00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:56.270 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb hat das Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit 70 % Ja gesagt zum Stromgesetz.</font>

  453
  00:23:56.911 --> 00:23:58.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb müssen die Projekte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ziele umgesetzt werden.</font>

  454
  00:23:59.532 --> 00:24:01.001 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist eine Herausforderung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist mir klar.</font>

  455
  00:24:01.642 --> 00:24:03.268 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen uns gemeinsam</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf das konzentrieren,</font>

  456
  00:24:03.909 --> 00:24:05.520 
  <font color="#ffffff">was in nützlicher Frist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">realistisch ist.</font>

  457
  00:24:06.161 --> 00:24:08.679 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über ein Luftschloss philosophieren.</font>

  458
  00:24:09.321 --> 00:24:13.400 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  459
  00:24:14.041 --> 00:24:17.790 
  <font color="#ffffff">China, Indien, Frankreich - in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Europa sind zwölf AKW in Planung,</font>

  460
  00:24:18.431 --> 00:24:21.267 
  <font color="#ffffff">neun werden gebaut.</font>

  461
  00:24:21.908 --> 00:24:24.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt nur vier Länder, die einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Atomausstieg beschlossen haben,</font>

  462
  00:24:24.931 --> 00:24:26.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">eines davon ist die Schweiz.</font>

  463
  00:24:27.051 --> 00:24:30.349 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur Deutschland hat Stand heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alle Kernkraftwerke abgestellt.</font>

  464
  00:24:30.991 --> 00:24:32.759 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was in Deutschland mit den Energie-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Strompreisen abgeht,</font>

  465
  00:24:33.401 --> 00:24:34.869 
  <font color="#ffffff">wissen wir alle.</font>

  466
  00:24:35.511 --> 00:24:38.280 
  <font color="#ffffff">Würde stimmen, was Sie sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dann nicht auf der ganzen Welt.</font>

  467
  00:24:38.922 --> 00:24:41.090 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sogar in Japan, wo Fukushima war,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">werden neue Atomkraftwerke gebaut.</font>

  468
  00:24:41.731 --> 00:24:48.272 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was die Kosten betrifft: Atomkraft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist vergleichbar mit Erneuerbaren.</font>

  469
  00:24:48.912 --> 00:24:55.498 
  <font color="#ffffff">7-12 Rp. pro Kilowattstunde sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Gestehungskosten für Atomkraft.</font>

  470
  00:24:56.140 --> 00:24:59.200 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was viel billiger ist, wie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alle vergessen: die Systemkosten,</font>

  471
  00:24:59.841 --> 00:25:02.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">die man mit der Bandenergie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Kernkraft nicht hat.</font>

  472
  00:25:03.573 --> 00:25:06.239 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man braucht keine Speicher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu machen, das Netz auszubauen,</font>

  473
  00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.759 
  <font color="#ffffff">um Maximalkapazitäten zu haben.</font>

  474
  00:25:09.401 --> 00:25:11.110 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unter dem Strich kommt die Kernkraft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wesentlich billiger</font>

  475
  00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:13.740 
  <font color="#ffffff">als die Erneuerbaren.</font>

  476
  00:25:14.382 --> 00:25:20.699 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kollege Pult hat mir vorhin einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">analytischen Fehler unterstellt.</font>

  477
  00:25:21.340 --> 00:25:22.979 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie analysieren diesen jetzt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">andersherum.</font>

  478
  00:25:23.620 --> 00:25:25.279 
  <font color="#ffffff">Den muss ich schon kurz analysieren,</font>

  479
  00:25:25.923 --> 00:25:27.831 
  <font color="#ffffff">man lässt sich nicht gerne</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Fehler unterstellen.</font>

  480
  00:25:28.472 --> 00:25:31.994 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kollege Pult begründete er es damit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Windkraftwerke</font>

  481
  00:25:32.635 --> 00:25:40.640 
  <font color="#ffffff">aus den gleichen Kreisen bekämpft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">würden wie von AKW-Befürwortern.</font>

  482
  00:25:41.281 --> 00:25:43.159 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist eine Vermutung.</font>

  483
  00:25:43.801 --> 00:25:45.522 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kann Ihnen aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Fakt geben:</font>

  484
  00:25:46.163 --> 00:25:52.295 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wasserkraft ist das Rückgrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unserer Energieversorgung,</font>

  485
  00:25:52.931 --> 00:25:55.059 
  <font color="#ffffff">bereits jetzt und auch in Zukunft.</font>

  486
  00:25:55.701 --> 00:25:57.941 
  <font color="#ffffff">60 % der jetzigen Energieversorgung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist Wasserkraft.</font>

  487
  00:25:58.583 --> 00:26:01.904 
  <font color="#ffffff">Um auf diesem Pfad weiterzukommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den wir beide wollen -</font>

  488
  00:26:02.545 --> 00:26:04.079 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben hier</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gar keinen Unterschied -,</font>

  489
  00:26:04.723 --> 00:26:06.280 
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen wir die Wasserkraft ausbauen.</font>

  490
  00:26:06.921 --> 00:26:10.060 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben drei wichtige Projekte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der 16 des runden Tischs:</font>

  491
  00:26:10.701 --> 00:26:14.739 
  <font color="#ffffff">Trift, Grimsel und Gornerli,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das bereits erwähnt wurde.</font>

  492
  00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:17.939 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese sind blockiert -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist ein Fakt.</font>

  493
  00:26:18.581 --> 00:26:23.020 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie wissen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von welchen Organisationen.</font>

  494
  00:26:23.662 --> 00:26:29.649 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort würde es guttun, wenn man sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in diesen Organisationen</font>

  495
  00:26:30.290 --> 00:26:31.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Überlegung machen würde,</font>

  496
  00:26:32.530 --> 00:26:36.211 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob man damit nicht den KKW-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Befürwortern in die Hände spielt.</font>

  497
  00:26:36.852 --> 00:26:39.700 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau diese Projekte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wollen wir auf die Schiene bringen.</font>

  498
  00:26:40.341 --> 00:26:44.970 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau deshalb haben wir vor drei</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Monaten Ja gesagt zum Stromgesetz.</font>

  499
  00:26:45.611 --> 00:26:51.639 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch etwas zu Herr Graber:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Er spricht immer von Doris Leuthard.</font>

  500
  00:26:52.280 --> 00:26:56.389 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es war ein Volksentscheid, der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundesrat hat gemeinsam entschieden</font>

  501
  00:26:57.031 --> 00:27:02.310 
  <font color="#ffffff">und der Volksentscheid</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurde seither mehrmals bestätigt.</font>

  502
  00:27:02.951 --> 00:27:07.264 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird immer behauptet, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energiestrategie sei gescheitert.</font>

  503
  00:27:07.905 --> 00:27:11.059 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Energiestrategie heisst 2050.</font>

  504
  00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:14.979 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es kommt mir vor,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie wenn ich mir das Ziel setze,</font>

  505
  00:27:15.620 --> 00:27:19.540 
  <font color="#ffffff">nächstes Jahr eine Marathon</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu laufen in unter 4 Std.</font>

  506
  00:27:20.187 --> 00:27:22.219 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich beginne mit dem Aufbautraining.</font>

  507
  00:27:22.862 --> 00:27:25.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nach vier Wochen versuche ich es,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schaffe es nicht und sage,</font>

  508
  00:27:26.053 --> 00:27:27.759 
  <font color="#ffffff">es sei gescheitert.</font>

  509
  00:27:28.401 --> 00:27:32.194 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben einen Plan,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der funktioniert.</font>

  510
  00:27:32.834 --> 00:27:34.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben ihn aufgegleist.</font>

  511
  00:27:35.057 --> 00:27:37.559 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen einen Tisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf vier Beinen,</font>

  512
  00:27:38.201 --> 00:27:42.199 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir brauchen erneuerbare Energien,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Reserven.</font>

  513
  00:27:42.840 --> 00:27:49.239 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese sind nicht die Schönsten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber wir werden sie brauchen.</font>

  514
  00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:54.109 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen eine Speicherung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und ein verlässliches Netz.</font>

  515
  00:27:54.751 --> 00:27:58.719 
  <font color="#ffffff">Obendrauf müssen wir uns endlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um die Energieeffizienz kümmern.</font>

  516
  00:27:59.360 --> 00:28:02.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  517
  00:28:03.447 --> 00:28:07.539 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir diskutieren später</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vertiefter darüber.</font>

  518
  00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:10.307 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich möchte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">über etwas anderes diskutieren.</font>

  519
  00:28:10.949 --> 00:28:14.160 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sprechen von der Initiative, die</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">lanciert wurde, vom Gegenvorschlag.</font>

  520
  00:28:14.801 --> 00:28:17.561 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir müssen noch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einen anderen Aspekt anschauen:</font>

  521
  00:28:18.202 --> 00:28:20.659 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Initiative</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">des Energie Club Schweiz will,</font>

  522
  00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:25.689 
  <font color="#00ffff">das neue AKW</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder möglich sind, nur:</font>

  523
  00:28:37.672 --> 00:28:39.989 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da kommen wir zur zweiten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">grossen Frage von heute Abend:</font>

  524
  00:28:40.634 --> 00:28:43.351 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie weiter</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach diesem Unterschriftendebakel?</font>

  525
  00:28:43.992 --> 00:28:48.479 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vanessa Meury, Sie als Initianten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Initiative des Energie Club:</font>

  526
  00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:52.456 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Bundesanwaltschaft ermittelt -</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht gegen Sie selbstverständlich,</font>

  527
  00:28:53.090 --> 00:28:55.567 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern gegen Firmen, die diese</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Unterschriften gesammelt haben,</font>

  528
  00:28:56.208 --> 00:28:59.520 
  <font color="#00ffff">das müssen wir klar sagen -</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wegen Verdachts auf Wahlbetrug.</font>

  529
  00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.969 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wäre es nicht geschickt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn man, bis man ein Resultat hat,</font>

  530
  00:29:04.610 --> 00:29:07.408 
  <font color="#00ffff">einen Marschhalt machen würde?</font>

  531
  00:29:08.050 --> 00:29:11.459 
  <font color="#008000">Der Ausdruck "Unterschriften kaufen"</font>
  <font color="#008000">stört mich sehr.</font>

  532
  00:29:12.100 --> 00:29:13.719 
  <font color="#008000">Wir haben nicht</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unterschriften gekauft,</font>

  533
  00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:15.829 
  <font color="#008000">sondern professionelle Firmen</font>
  <font color="#008000">engagiert,</font>

  534
  00:29:16.470 --> 00:29:17.891 
  <font color="#008000">die in unserem Auftrag</font>
  <font color="#008000">auf die Strasse gingen,</font>

  535
  00:29:18.532 --> 00:29:19.977 
  <font color="#008000">um Unterschriften zu sammeln.</font>

  536
  00:29:20.618 --> 00:29:22.059 
  <font color="#008000">Wir haben sie</font>
  <font color="#008000">für diese Dienstleistung bezahlt.</font>

  537
  00:29:22.701 --> 00:29:24.568 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist der erste Punkt.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Das ist aber das gleiche.</font>

  538
  00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:26.720 
  <font color="#008000">Man kann das einfach umdrehen.</font>

  539
  00:29:27.361 --> 00:29:31.189 
  <font color="#008000">Wir zahlen die Dienstleistung,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wir kaufen nicht die Unterschriften.</font>

  540
  00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:34.469 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist ein wesentlicher Unterschied</font>
  <font color="#008000">für mich.</font>

  541
  00:29:35.111 --> 00:29:37.771 
  <font color="#008000">Als Zweites bez. dieser</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unterschriften, des Vorwurfes,</font>

  542
  00:29:38.412 --> 00:29:40.509 
  <font color="#008000">es seien gefälschte Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#008000">eingereicht worden:</font>

  543
  00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:43.621 
  <font color="#008000">Wir haben über 125'000</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unterschriften eingereicht,</font>

  544
  00:29:44.262 --> 00:29:47.609 
  <font color="#008000">die von den Gemeinden und von</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Bundeskanzlei geprüft wurden.</font>

  545
  00:29:48.250 --> 00:29:50.669 
  <font color="#008000">Ich sehe keinen Grund,</font>
  <font color="#008000">darüber zu diskutieren,</font>

  546
  00:29:51.310 --> 00:29:54.039 
  <font color="#008000">ob unsere Initiative</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht gültig ist.</font>

  547
  00:29:54.679 --> 00:29:56.209 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben früh gemerkt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass etwas nicht stimmen kann</font>

  548
  00:29:56.850 --> 00:29:58.599 
  <font color="#00ffff">und etwas unternommen.</font>

  549
  00:29:59.244 --> 00:30:03.318 
  <font color="#008000">Als er feststellte, dass</font>
  <font color="#008000">die Ungültigkeitsquote hoch ist,</font>

  550
  00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.000 
  <font color="#008000">stoppten wir die Zusammenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit den Firmen sofort,</font>

  551
  00:30:06.642 --> 00:30:08.745 
  <font color="#008000">weil wir Wert darauf legen,</font>

  552
  00:30:09.386 --> 00:30:12.399 
  <font color="#008000">dass die Qualität von</font>
  <font color="#008000">bezahlten Dienstleistungen hoch ist.</font>

  553
  00:30:13.040 --> 00:30:16.371 
  <font color="#00ffff">Fast die Hälfte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der beglaubigten Unterschriften</font>

  554
  00:30:17.012 --> 00:30:18.783 
  <font color="#00ffff">kam aus der Westschweiz.</font>

  555
  00:30:19.425 --> 00:30:21.850 
  <font color="#00ffff">Macht Sie das nicht stutzig?</font>

  556
  00:30:22.492 --> 00:30:24.279 
  <font color="#008000">Nein, sie wurden alle beglaubigt</font>
  <font color="#008000">von den Gemeinden,</font>

  557
  00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:26.539 
  <font color="#008000">wir haben sie geprüft.</font>

  558
  00:30:27.181 --> 00:30:29.339 
  <font color="#008000">Auch die Bundeskanzlei hat sie</font>
  <font color="#008000">geprüft und für gültig erklärt.</font>

  559
  00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:31.899 
  <font color="#008000">Auch wenn der Anteil hoch</font>

  560
  00:30:32.541 --> 00:30:35.528 
  <font color="#008000">ist und man dort noch ungültige</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unterschriften finden würde -</font>

  561
  00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:38.528 
  <font color="#008000">wir haben über 125'000</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unterschriften eingereicht.</font>

  562
  00:30:39.170 --> 00:30:40.539 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist mehr als genug.</font>

  563
  00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:42.629 
  <font color="#00ffff">Glauben Sie nicht,</font>

  564
  00:30:43.270 --> 00:30:45.489 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass das Vertrauen in diese Ini-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">tiative jetzt auch angekratzt ist?</font>

  565
  00:30:46.132 --> 00:30:48.449 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist nicht die einzige, überhaupt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in alle, die betroffen sind?</font>

  566
  00:30:49.091 --> 00:30:50.679 
  <font color="#008000">Ich denke schon,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass die Medienberichterstattung</font>

  567
  00:30:51.321 --> 00:30:55.268 
  <font color="#008000">ein gewisses Misstrauen</font>
  <font color="#008000">dem gegenüber nicht gefördert hat.</font>

  568
  00:30:55.910 --> 00:31:00.449 
  <font color="#008000">Wir können nur betonen, dass wir das</font>
  <font color="#008000">sehr ernst genommen haben</font>

  569
  00:31:01.090 --> 00:31:03.129 
  <font color="#008000">und gestoppt haben, als wir merkten,</font>

  570
  00:31:03.770 --> 00:31:06.499 
  <font color="#008000">dass es nicht funktioniert</font>
  <font color="#008000">und die Ungültigkeitsquote hoch ist.</font>

  571
  00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:08.669 
  <font color="#008000">Und nochmals darauf hinweisen,</font>

  572
  00:31:09.311 --> 00:31:11.108 
  <font color="#008000">dass wir über 125'000</font>
  <font color="#008000">gültige Unterschriften haben.</font>

  573
  00:31:11.749 --> 00:31:14.120 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es sind fast 126'000</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beglaubigte Unterschriften.</font>

  574
  00:31:14.760 --> 00:31:16.389 
  <font color="#00ffff">100'000 braucht es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für eine Initiative, Jon Pult.</font>

  575
  00:31:17.030 --> 00:31:22.159 
  <font color="#00ffff">26'000 on top - das ist ein</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ziemlich gutes Sicherheitspolster.</font>

  576
  00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:26.709 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte mich zur spezifischen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Initiative von Frau Meury</font>

  577
  00:31:27.350 --> 00:31:28.779 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht äussern.</font>

  578
  00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:31.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde es nicht ganz fair,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie sich rechtfertigen muss.</font>

  579
  00:31:32.050 --> 00:31:33.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es betrifft nicht nur</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Initiative.</font>

  580
  00:31:34.330 --> 00:31:36.945 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist nicht nur ein Rechtfertigen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">es ist auch ein Erklären.</font>

  581
  00:31:37.587 --> 00:31:40.628 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben auch spannende Aspekte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gehört, auch zu Ihrem Umgang damit.</font>

  582
  00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:45.638 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">relativ glaubwürdige Vorwürfe,</font>

  583
  00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:48.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass bei vielen Initiativen -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist nur ein Beispiel -</font>

  584
  00:31:49.493 --> 00:31:55.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dinge passierten, die unsere</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Demokratie im Kern infrage stellen.</font>

  585
  00:31:56.372 --> 00:31:58.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist kein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus der Luft gegriffener Vorwurf.</font>

  586
  00:31:58.851 --> 00:32:01.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Bundesanwaltschaft ermittelt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen Wahlbetrugs.</font>

  587
  00:32:01.894 --> 00:32:04.568 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Schlimmste, was wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unserer Demokratie antun können.</font>

  588
  00:32:05.211 --> 00:32:07.748 
  <font color="#ffffff">In dieser Situation - da geht es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht um die AKW-Diskussion</font>

  589
  00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:10.078 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder diese spezifische Initiative -</font>

  590
  00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:12.481 
  <font color="#ffffff">hätte ich es generell verantwortlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und richtig gefunden,</font>

  591
  00:32:13.121 --> 00:32:14.639 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn der Bundesrat gesagt hätte,</font>

  592
  00:32:15.280 --> 00:32:16.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">man schaffe dafür</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gesetzliche Grundlage,</font>

  593
  00:32:17.455 --> 00:32:19.019 
  <font color="#ffffff">um stichprobenmässig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nachkontrollieren zu können,</font>

  594
  00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:21.598 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob diese Vorwürfe stimmen.</font>

  595
  00:32:22.239 --> 00:32:25.678 
  <font color="#ffffff">Um eine Plausibilität zu schaffen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die wiederum die Glaubwürdigkeit</font>

  596
  00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:28.638 
  <font color="#ffffff">in unsere direkte Demokratie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gestärkt hätte.</font>

  597
  00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:30.906 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie ist erschüttert</font>

  598
  00:32:31.547 --> 00:32:33.401 
  <font color="#ffffff">und bis die Arbeit der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundesanwaltschaft nicht fertig ist,</font>

  599
  00:32:34.043 --> 00:32:35.539 
  <font color="#ffffff">wird sie das bleiben.</font>

  600
  00:32:36.185 --> 00:32:39.248 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein grosses Problem für alle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Initiant/-innen von Initiativen.</font>

  601
  00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:42.869 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kenne Leute,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die bereits für Initiativen sammeln,</font>

  602
  00:32:43.510 --> 00:32:45.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht gegen Geld,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern auf Freiwilligenbasis,</font>

  603
  00:32:46.050 --> 00:32:48.179 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es sich in einer Demokratie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gehört -</font>

  604
  00:32:48.820 --> 00:32:50.265 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sagen, die Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterschreiben viel weniger,</font>

  605
  00:32:50.905 --> 00:32:52.819 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie glauben, es gehe nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit rechten Dingen zu und her.</font>

  606
  00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:55.248 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da hätte der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine staatspolitische Verantwortung,</font>

  607
  00:32:55.889 --> 00:32:57.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Marschhalt zu machen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kontrollen durchzuführen,</font>

  608
  00:32:58.049 --> 00:33:00.860 
  <font color="#ffffff">eine maximale Transparenz aller</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Initiativkomitees einzufordern.</font>

  609
  00:33:01.502 --> 00:33:03.678 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie viele Dienstleistungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie bezogen haben etc.,</font>

  610
  00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:05.784 
  <font color="#ffffff">um das System zu stabilisieren</font>

  611
  00:33:06.425 --> 00:33:07.899 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Glaubwertigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wiederherzustellen.</font>

  612
  00:33:08.540 --> 00:33:10.069 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herr Graber,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ziehen Sie gleich mit Jon Pult?</font>

  613
  00:33:10.711 --> 00:33:12.838 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie lancieren auch viele Initiativen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei der SVP.</font>

  614
  00:33:13.479 --> 00:33:18.108 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn Jon Pult die Demokratie in</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unserem Land wiederherstellen wird,</font>

  615
  00:33:18.750 --> 00:33:21.637 
  <font color="#ffffff">so besorgt ist, würde ich empfehlen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Migrationspositionen</font>

  616
  00:33:22.278 --> 00:33:24.519 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Einbürgerungsposition der SP</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu überprüfen.</font>

  617
  00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:26.770 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darüber sprechen wir nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">heute Abend.</font>

  618
  00:33:27.412 --> 00:33:30.188 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  619
  00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:34.118 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Michael, komm schon,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist unter deinem Niveau.</font>

  620
  00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:39.058 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Das ist tragisch,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das zeigt, dass das System,</font>

  621
  00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:41.618 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Kontrollmechanismen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">funktionieren.</font>

  622
  00:33:42.258 --> 00:33:44.139 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wurde gemogelt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist nicht okay.</font>

  623
  00:33:44.780 --> 00:33:46.778 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Hauptproblem,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ich in dieser Thematik sehe:</font>

  624
  00:33:47.419 --> 00:33:50.648 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wurde korrekt unterschrieben,</font>

  625
  00:33:51.289 --> 00:33:53.290 
  <font color="#ffffff">jemand ging mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den gesammelten Unterschriften hin,</font>

  626
  00:33:53.926 --> 00:33:55.658 
  <font color="#ffffff">wollte sie dem Initianten verkaufen.</font>

  627
  00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:58.149 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der sagte: Nein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Bürger, der unterschrieben hat,</font>

  628
  00:33:58.790 --> 00:34:01.309 
  <font color="#ffffff">sei im Verständnis gewesen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Anliegen unterstützt zu haben</font>

  629
  00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:04.059 
  <font color="#ffffff">und zu wissen, dass die Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vielleicht nicht zustande kommt.</font>

  630
  00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:06.138 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die andere Seite</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Medaille.</font>

  631
  00:34:06.780 --> 00:34:08.870 
  <font color="#ffffff">Macht jemand eine Unterschriften-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">fälschung, ist das eine Straftat.</font>

  632
  00:34:09.511 --> 00:34:11.688 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das gibt eine Strafe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist bereits jetzt nicht okay.</font>

  633
  00:34:12.330 --> 00:34:14.818 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es funktioniert ja auch.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich würde das nicht hochkochen.</font>

  634
  00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:17.039 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern,</font>

  635
  00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:19.239 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die SVP</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit ihren laufenden Initiativen -</font>

  636
  00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:21.349 
  <font color="#ffffff">momentan läuft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Grenzschutz-Initiative -</font>

  637
  00:34:21.991 --> 00:34:24.068 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit diesen Firmen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammengearbeitet hat.</font>

  638
  00:34:24.713 --> 00:34:26.808 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verwerflich.</font>

  639
  00:34:27.449 --> 00:34:29.231 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich sehe nicht die Notwendigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weiterer Schritte,</font>

  640
  00:34:29.871 --> 00:34:31.507 
  <font color="#ffffff">das System funktioniert.</font>

  641
  00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:33.690 
  <font color="#00ffff">Einen Marschhalt braucht es nicht,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sagen Sie.</font>

  642
  00:34:34.329 --> 00:34:36.918 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sagt auch der Bundesrat an</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der wöchentlichen Bundesratssitzung.</font>

  643
  00:34:37.560 --> 00:34:39.759 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bei der Medienkonferenz trat nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Bundesrat vor die Medien,</font>

  644
  00:34:40.399 --> 00:34:42.041 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern der Bundeskanzler</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Viktor Rossi.</font>

  645
  00:34:42.684 --> 00:34:47.928 
  <font color="#00ffff">Er sagte, es gebe keine</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">belastbaren Indizien ...</font>

  646
  00:34:48.802 --> 00:34:52.089 
  <font color="#ffff00">... dass eines dieser Volksbegehren</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu Unrecht</font>

  647
  00:34:52.731 --> 00:34:55.299 
  <font color="#ffff00">als zustande gekommen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">erklärt worden wäre.</font>

  648
  00:34:55.940 --> 00:34:59.687 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aus all diesen Gründen sollen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die zustande gekommenen Initiativen</font>

  649
  00:35:00.328 --> 00:35:02.288 
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht infrage gestellt werden.</font>

  650
  00:35:02.929 --> 00:35:05.088 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist ein Entscheid</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nach der Devise:</font>

  651
  00:35:05.729 --> 00:35:08.198 
  <font color="#ffff00">Im Zweifel für die Volksrechte.</font>

  652
  00:35:08.893 --> 00:35:11.290 
  <font color="#00ffff">"Im Zweifel für die Volksrechte",</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Priska Wismer,</font>

  653
  00:35:11.932 --> 00:35:16.660 
  <font color="#00ffff">am Schluss kann das Volk</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">über solche Initiativen entscheiden.</font>

  654
  00:35:17.301 --> 00:35:19.558 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn das Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Initiative entscheidet,</font>

  655
  00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:24.050 
  <font color="#ffffff">sehe ich auch kein Problem.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann sagt das Volk Ja oder Nein.</font>

  656
  00:35:24.692 --> 00:35:26.988 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das grössere Problem ist,</font>

  657
  00:35:27.629 --> 00:35:31.175 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn es gar nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Abstimmung kommt</font>

  658
  00:35:31.817 --> 00:35:36.068 
  <font color="#ffffff">und eine solche Initiative Auslöser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist für einen Gegenvorschlag,</font>

  659
  00:35:36.709 --> 00:35:39.838 
  <font color="#ffffff">der einfach im Parlament</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beraten wird.</font>

  660
  00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:43.039 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte das in diesem Fall</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht unterstellen,</font>

  661
  00:35:43.680 --> 00:35:48.829 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber die Glaubwürdigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Allgemeinen hat gelitten.</font>

  662
  00:35:49.470 --> 00:35:51.958 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kommt in meinen Augen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu wenig raus.</font>

  663
  00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:56.905 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir mehr Sicherheiten schaffen.</font>

  664
  00:35:57.547 --> 00:36:00.558 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist etwas von Wertvollsten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das wir in der Schweiz haben,</font>

  665
  00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:04.398 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man sagen kann: Das Volk</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darf Unterschriften sammeln,</font>

  666
  00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:09.687 
  <font color="#ffffff">mitentscheiden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob wir über etwas abstimmen sollen.</font>

  667
  00:36:10.329 --> 00:36:13.708 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist etwas Wertvolles,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dem müssen wir Sorge tragen</font>

  668
  00:36:14.350 --> 00:36:17.401 
  <font color="#ffffff">uns die Glaubwürdigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zurückgewinnen.</font>

  669
  00:36:18.041 --> 00:36:20.851 
  <font color="#00ffff">Über die Glaubwürdigkeit</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">müssen wir noch kurz diskutieren.</font>

  670
  00:36:21.492 --> 00:36:23.863 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das Misstrauen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Schweizer Bürger/-innen</font>

  671
  00:36:24.505 --> 00:36:26.058 
  <font color="#00ffff">scheint momentan gross zu sein.</font>

  672
  00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.968 
  <font color="#00ffff">Heute Morgen las ich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">diese Schlagzeile in "20 Minuten":</font>

  673
  00:36:34.592 --> 00:36:36.758 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es gibt offenbar Feedback</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Strasse,</font>

  674
  00:36:37.399 --> 00:36:39.918 
  <font color="#00ffff">von Leuten,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Unterschriften sammeln.</font>

  675
  00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:42.627 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich komme nach hinten zu Ihnen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">guten Abend.</font>

  676
  00:36:43.269 --> 00:36:46.508 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mich interessiert,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie Sie das sehen.</font>

  677
  00:36:47.149 --> 00:36:51.828 
  <font color="#00ffff">Haben Sie noch ein Vertrauen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in die Unterschriftensammlungen?</font>

  678
  00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:57.368 
  <font color="#008000">Heutzutage</font>
  <font color="#008000">kann man diesen Unterschriften</font>

  679
  00:36:58.009 --> 00:37:00.968 
  <font color="#008000">nicht mehr so Vertrauen.</font>

  680
  00:37:01.609 --> 00:37:07.618 
  <font color="#008000">Wie alle sagen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">könnten sie gefälscht sein.</font>

  681
  00:37:08.260 --> 00:37:13.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind also eher skeptisch?</font>
  <font color="#008000">- Ja, eher.</font>

  682
  00:37:13.769 --> 00:37:16.170 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich frage hier unten noch jemanden,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">guten Abend.</font>

  683
  00:37:16.811 --> 00:37:18.317 
  <font color="#008000">Grüezi.</font>

  684
  00:37:18.958 --> 00:37:20.348 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben Sie es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit den Unterschriften,</font>

  685
  00:37:20.989 --> 00:37:22.448 
  <font color="#00ffff">würden Sie noch unterschreiben?</font>

  686
  00:37:23.089 --> 00:37:24.605 
  <font color="#008000">Skepsis ist angesagt,</font>
  <font color="#008000">das sehe ich auch so.</font>

  687
  00:37:25.246 --> 00:37:29.308 
  <font color="#008000">Aber aus Überzeugung</font>
  <font color="#008000">würde ich schon noch unterschreiben.</font>

  688
  00:37:29.950 --> 00:37:32.068 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie würden Sie das kontrollieren?</font>

  689
  00:37:32.710 --> 00:37:35.983 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist eine gute Frage,</font>
  <font color="#008000">ich habe keine Antwort.</font>

  690
  00:37:36.624 --> 00:37:38.138 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darf ich bei Ihnen noch fragen?</font>

  691
  00:37:38.779 --> 00:37:41.130 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist die Skepsis</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder das Vertrauen grösser?</font>

  692
  00:37:41.771 --> 00:37:44.390 
  <font color="#008000">Ich werde vertrauen.</font>

  693
  00:37:45.031 --> 00:37:48.748 
  <font color="#008000">Ich würde</font>
  <font color="#008000">den Unterschriften vertrauen.</font>

  694
  00:37:49.390 --> 00:37:50.888 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie würden vertrauen.</font>

  695
  00:37:51.529 --> 00:37:54.532 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben ein schönes Bild</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Misstrauen bis Vertrauen.</font>

  696
  00:37:55.169 --> 00:37:57.357 
  <font color="#00ffff">Doch sieht man in der Umfrage:</font>

  697
  00:37:57.999 --> 00:38:03.545 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist nicht ganz einfach</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für viele Leute.</font>

  698
  00:38:04.185 --> 00:38:06.058 
  <font color="#00ffff">Frage an alle:</font>

  699
  00:38:06.699 --> 00:38:08.858 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es jetzt nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ein klares Signal aus Bundesbern,</font>

  700
  00:38:09.499 --> 00:38:13.208 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass man dieses Vertrauen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder stärken will?</font>

  701
  00:38:13.849 --> 00:38:15.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sehe ich nicht so.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das System funktioniert.</font>

  702
  00:38:16.529 --> 00:38:17.978 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist vielmehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein gesellschaftliches Problem.</font>

  703
  00:38:18.619 --> 00:38:22.038 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch der Angestellte der SP,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der SVP, einer Gewerkschaft,</font>

  704
  00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:24.648 
  <font color="#ffffff">der auf der Strasse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriften sammelt,</font>

  705
  00:38:25.290 --> 00:38:26.797 
  <font color="#ffffff">wird für diese Arbeit bezahlt.</font>

  706
  00:38:27.438 --> 00:38:29.547 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir leben in einer Gesellschaft,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die sehr individualistisch ist,</font>

  707
  00:38:30.189 --> 00:38:31.767 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo man sehr wenig Freiwilligenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">leistet.</font>

  708
  00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:34.671 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sieht man auch in Vereinen,</font>

  709
  00:38:35.312 --> 00:38:36.868 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo die Aktivitäten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">teils stark abnehmen.</font>

  710
  00:38:37.509 --> 00:38:39.458 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit dieser Anspruchshaltung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es schwierig,</font>

  711
  00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:43.338 
  <font color="#ffffff">Freiwillige zu finden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die aus reiner Überzeugung</font>

  712
  00:38:43.979 --> 00:38:45.517 
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die Strasse gehen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um Unterschriften zu sammeln.</font>

  713
  00:38:46.158 --> 00:38:47.539 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Hauptproblem.</font>

  714
  00:38:48.181 --> 00:38:49.627 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb kommen viele Initiativen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht zustande,</font>

  715
  00:38:50.268 --> 00:38:51.687 
  <font color="#ffffff">was ich schade finde.</font>

  716
  00:38:52.330 --> 00:38:53.753 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde es schön,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man abstimmen kann,</font>

  717
  00:38:54.388 --> 00:38:56.748 
  <font color="#ffffff">dieses Recht ausüben kann.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das System funktioniert.</font>

  718
  00:38:57.389 --> 00:38:58.928 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es braucht es.</font>

  719
  00:38:59.569 --> 00:39:00.989 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frage ist,</font>

  720
  00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:03.572 
  <font color="#ffffff">weshalb die Sammelorganisationen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen solchen Zulauf hatten.</font>

  721
  00:39:04.214 --> 00:39:07.067 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich teile die Auffassung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Kollegen Graber,</font>

  722
  00:39:07.709 --> 00:39:09.437 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Bereitschaft,</font>

  723
  00:39:10.078 --> 00:39:13.179 
  <font color="#ffffff">sich stundenlange</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Beine in den Bauch zu stehen ...</font>

  724
  00:39:13.820 --> 00:39:15.748 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe das selbst gemacht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer Initiative.</font>

  725
  00:39:16.389 --> 00:39:18.379 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist wirklich anstrengend.</font>

  726
  00:39:19.020 --> 00:39:23.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt viele Leute, die sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie finden das Anliegen gut,</font>

  727
  00:39:23.928 --> 00:39:25.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">die aber lieber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">finanziell etwas geben,</font>

  728
  00:39:26.410 --> 00:39:28.141 
  <font color="#ffffff">als selber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriften zu sammeln.</font>

  729
  00:39:28.782 --> 00:39:32.188 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der Nährboden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für solche Organisationen.</font>

  730
  00:39:32.829 --> 00:39:38.087 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Erschütterung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist auch bei mir da, das ist klar.</font>

  731
  00:39:38.728 --> 00:39:40.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur das Vertrauen, selbst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mehr unterschreiben sollen,</font>

  732
  00:39:41.450 --> 00:39:43.577 
  <font color="#ffffff">verstehe ich nicht.</font>

  733
  00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:46.462 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich unterschreibe, weiss ich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass ich unterschrieben habe.</font>

  734
  00:39:47.104 --> 00:39:51.128 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Problem ist, dass irgendwelche</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriften gefälscht werden.</font>

  735
  00:39:51.769 --> 00:39:53.214 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dass Ihr Name</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">plötzlich auf einem Zettel steht,</font>

  736
  00:39:53.850 --> 00:39:55.550 
  <font color="#00ffff">den Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gar nicht unterschrieben haben.</font>

  737
  00:39:56.191 --> 00:39:59.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau, aber deshalb unterschreibe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich selbst doch noch Initiativen.</font>

  738
  00:39:59.689 --> 00:40:01.742 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann habe ich die Kontrolle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass ich es richtig mache.</font>

  739
  00:40:02.637 --> 00:40:04.688 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Ich würde auch alle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die das Anliegen haben,</font>

  740
  00:40:05.329 --> 00:40:06.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">dazu auffordern,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Initiative zu unterschreiben.</font>

  741
  00:40:07.489 --> 00:40:09.228 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin aber komplett</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anderer Meinung</font>

  742
  00:40:09.869 --> 00:40:12.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">als Kollegin Vincenz-Stauffacher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Kollege Graber ...</font>

  743
  00:40:12.768 --> 00:40:14.577 
  <font color="#00ffff">Erstaunt uns nicht.</font>

  744
  00:40:15.218 --> 00:40:18.187 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind auch etwa gleicher Meinung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber hier bin ich anderer Meinung.</font>

  745
  00:40:18.828 --> 00:40:21.153 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was mich fundamental stört und das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">stört wohl auch zu grossen Teilen</font>

  746
  00:40:21.794 --> 00:40:23.358 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Schweizer Bevölkerung,</font>

  747
  00:40:23.997 --> 00:40:26.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist: Die direkte Demokratie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darf kein Geschäftsmodell sein.</font>

  748
  00:40:27.177 --> 00:40:29.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist doch das Problem:</font>

  749
  00:40:30.008 --> 00:40:33.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt Firmen gibt, die ein Gesch-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">äftsmodell daraus entwickelt haben,</font>

  750
  00:40:33.688 --> 00:40:36.818 
  <font color="#ffffff">für andere Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu sammeln.</font>

  751
  00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:39.270 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dann haben sie scheinbar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch noch beschissen</font>

  752
  00:40:39.911 --> 00:40:43.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Leute fast noch erpresst.</font>

  753
  00:40:43.689 --> 00:40:46.299 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist sowieso noch viel in-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">akzeptabler, da sind wir uns einig.</font>

  754
  00:40:46.940 --> 00:40:49.007 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber nur schon der Kern, dass es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Geschäftsmodell geworden ist,</font>

  755
  00:40:49.648 --> 00:40:51.077 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit unserer direkten Demokratie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Geld zu verdienen,</font>

  756
  00:40:51.718 --> 00:40:53.782 
  <font color="#ffffff">widerspricht doch fundamental</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Idee der direkten Demokratie.</font>

  757
  00:40:54.419 --> 00:40:56.067 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das ist das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was die Leute stört.</font>

  758
  00:40:56.709 --> 00:41:01.228 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weshalb das Einzige,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das man machen kann,</font>

  759
  00:41:01.869 --> 00:41:04.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">um das Vertrauen längerfristig für</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unser Land wieder herzustellen ist,</font>

  760
  00:41:05.088 --> 00:41:07.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist zu sagen, dass es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kein Geschäftsmodell sein darf,</font>

  761
  00:41:07.848 --> 00:41:10.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriften zu sammeln,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man verbiete das.</font>

  762
  00:41:10.848 --> 00:41:12.937 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wäre das nicht ein Problem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für kleine Organisationen,</font>

  763
  00:41:13.578 --> 00:41:15.337 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass sie überhaupt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu Unterschriften kommen?</font>

  764
  00:41:15.979 --> 00:41:19.648 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist viel teurer, 3, 5, 7 Fr.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">pro Unterschrift zu zahlen,</font>

  765
  00:41:20.289 --> 00:41:21.737 
  <font color="#ffffff">als selbst sammeln zu gehen.</font>

  766
  00:41:22.378 --> 00:41:24.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber was man haben muss, ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Bevölkerung zu mobilisieren.</font>

  767
  00:41:25.488 --> 00:41:26.985 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss sich organisieren.</font>

  768
  00:41:27.627 --> 00:41:29.257 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das ist die Idee</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der direkten Demokratie.</font>

  769
  00:41:29.899 --> 00:41:31.387 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht, dass ein einzelner</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit viel Geld</font>

  770
  00:41:32.029 --> 00:41:33.467 
  <font color="#ffffff">einfach jemanden anstellen kann,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der sammelt.</font>

  771
  00:41:34.107 --> 00:41:35.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Idee war es, dass sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Menschen zusammenschliessen,</font>

  772
  00:41:36.529 --> 00:41:37.987 
  <font color="#ffffff">sich organisieren und miteinander,</font>

  773
  00:41:38.629 --> 00:41:40.241 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei einer Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eben diese 100'000 Unterschriften</font>

  774
  00:41:40.883 --> 00:41:42.768 
  <font color="#ffffff">und bei einem Referendum die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über 50'000 Unterschriften sammeln.</font>

  775
  00:41:43.410 --> 00:41:44.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Idee.</font>

  776
  00:41:45.490 --> 00:41:46.957 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss sich engagieren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in unserem Milizsystem</font>

  777
  00:41:47.598 --> 00:41:49.017 
  <font color="#ffffff">und unserer direkten Demokratie,</font>

  778
  00:41:49.658 --> 00:41:51.097 
  <font color="#ffffff">und sich nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Geld Engagement erkaufen.</font>

  779
  00:41:51.738 --> 00:41:53.298 
  <font color="#00ffff">Verbieten ist also der Ansatz?</font>

  780
  00:41:53.939 --> 00:41:56.734 
  <font color="#ffffff">Verbieten ist nie der Lösungsansatz,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der mir zuerst in den Sinn kommt.</font>

  781
  00:41:57.375 --> 00:42:00.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist bei mir Priorität XY.</font>

  782
  00:42:01.448 --> 00:42:03.119 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn es wirklich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mehr anders geht.</font>

  783
  00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Aussage</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat mich doch etwas erstaunt:</font>

  784
  00:42:06.688 --> 00:42:10.302 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Mit unserer Demokratie Geld zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verdienen, ein Geschäftsmodell."</font>

  785
  00:42:10.943 --> 00:42:15.439 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was ist denn mit all den Kampagnen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Organisationen,</font>

  786
  00:42:16.080 --> 00:42:19.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Abstimmungskampagnen begleiten?</font>

  787
  00:42:20.009 --> 00:42:22.838 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die sollen auch Geld verdienen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich glaube,</font>

  788
  00:42:23.479 --> 00:42:26.477 
  <font color="#ffffff">da würden Sie mir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sowieso Recht geben ...</font>

  789
  00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:29.517 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist doch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">per se verwerflich,</font>

  790
  00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:31.956 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man im Zusammenhang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit unseren demokratischen Rechten</font>

  791
  00:42:32.598 --> 00:42:34.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch ein Geschäftsmodell entwickelt.</font>

  792
  00:42:34.725 --> 00:42:36.718 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hier ist es aber offensichtlich so,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es betrugsanfällig ist.</font>

  793
  00:42:37.359 --> 00:42:38.987 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dort müssen wir einhaken.</font>

  794
  00:42:39.634 --> 00:42:42.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen es nicht verbieten, aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es gibt vielleicht Möglichkeiten,</font>

  795
  00:42:43.048 --> 00:42:44.897 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch etwas besser zu verifizieren,</font>

  796
  00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:47.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">als einfach irgendwo</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Gemeinde, wo sie es abhaken.</font>

  797
  00:42:48.529 --> 00:42:52.651 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt Ideen, dass man z.B. per SMS</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Unterschrift nochmals bestätigt.</font>

  798
  00:42:53.288 --> 00:42:56.277 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da ist ein Vorstoss auf dem Weg.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Solche Sachen fände ich spannend.</font>

  799
  00:42:56.918 --> 00:43:02.968 
  <font color="#ffffff">Den digitalen Raum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch etwas besser nutzen. E-ID usw.</font>

  800
  00:43:03.609 --> 00:43:08.227 
  <font color="#00ffff">Spannend finde ich auch, dass Gioia</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Benninger von den Jungen Grünen</font>

  801
  00:43:08.875 --> 00:43:11.384 
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht verbieten will, warum nicht?</font>

  802
  00:43:12.025 --> 00:43:14.127 
  <font color="#ffff00">Doch, wir wollen es verbieten.</font>

  803
  00:43:14.768 --> 00:43:18.437 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn man pro Unterschrift bezahlt,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">erhöht es die Gefahr viel mehr,</font>

  804
  00:43:19.078 --> 00:43:20.849 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass man Unterschriften fälscht.</font>

  805
  00:43:21.491 --> 00:43:23.048 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und es ist problematisch,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn reiche Menschen</font>

  806
  00:43:23.689 --> 00:43:25.367 
  <font color="#ffff00">Volksabstimmungen kaufen können.</font>

  807
  00:43:26.008 --> 00:43:29.177 
  <font color="#ffff00">Der Gedanke unserer Demokratie ist</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">es, wie Jon Pult vorhin erklärt hat,</font>

  808
  00:43:29.819 --> 00:43:31.497 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass man eine Initiative hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die das Volk begeistert,</font>

  809
  00:43:32.138 --> 00:43:33.607 
  <font color="#ffff00">dann sind auch genügend Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bereit, zu sammeln.</font>

  810
  00:43:34.248 --> 00:43:36.808 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die letzte Initiative, die wir bei</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">den Jungen Grünen hatten,</font>

  811
  00:43:37.451 --> 00:43:40.107 
  <font color="#ffff00">konnten wir alleine mit freiwilligen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Arbeit unserer Mitglieder sammeln</font>

  812
  00:43:40.748 --> 00:43:42.616 
  <font color="#ffff00">und das war kein Problem.</font>

  813
  00:43:43.257 --> 00:43:47.187 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es war anstrengend, wir waren</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bei jeder Wetterlage draussen.</font>

  814
  00:43:47.828 --> 00:43:49.568 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber so sammelt man</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nun mal Initiativen.</font>

  815
  00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:55.699 
  <font color="#ffff00">Auch wenn es zu einem Referendum</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">kommen würde wegen des AKW-Neubaus,</font>

  816
  00:43:56.341 --> 00:43:59.148 
  <font color="#ffff00">hätten wir von der Allianz</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Atomausstieg kein Problem damit,</font>

  817
  00:43:59.788 --> 00:44:01.717 
  <font color="#ffff00">zusammen mit unseren</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Partnerorganisationen</font>

  818
  00:44:02.359 --> 00:44:05.327 
  <font color="#ffff00">die notwendigen Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu sammeln.</font>

  819
  00:44:05.968 --> 00:44:08.699 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was kostet eine solche Sammlung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einer Initiative?</font>

  820
  00:44:09.341 --> 00:44:12.407 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist ganz unterschiedlich,</font>
  <font color="#008000">je nach finanziellen Mitteln,</font>

  821
  00:44:13.050 --> 00:44:14.627 
  <font color="#008000">die man hat.</font>

  822
  00:44:15.268 --> 00:44:17.756 
  <font color="#008000">Das Thema der heutigen Sendung ist</font>
  <font color="#008000">die Stromversorgungssicherheit.</font>

  823
  00:44:18.398 --> 00:44:20.857 
  <font color="#008000">Ich würde lieber wieder</font>
  <font color="#008000">über dieses Thema diskutieren,</font>

  824
  00:44:21.498 --> 00:44:23.087 
  <font color="#008000">denn das ist viel interessanter</font>

  825
  00:44:23.728 --> 00:44:25.267 
  <font color="#008000">und ich habe noch viel mehr</font>
  <font color="#008000">Argumente dafür.</font>

  826
  00:44:25.908 --> 00:44:27.997 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das machen wir selbstverständlich.</font>

  827
  00:44:28.638 --> 00:44:30.757 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das erstaunt mich auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus dieser Position heraus.</font>

  828
  00:44:31.398 --> 00:44:33.626 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber wir müssen trotzdem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">über die Unterschriften diskutieren.</font>

  829
  00:44:34.268 --> 00:44:37.257 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wären Sie ohne solche Sammelfirmen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">überhaupt klargekommen?</font>

  830
  00:44:37.898 --> 00:44:40.189 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist schwierig zu sagen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">denn wir sind ein kleiner Verein.</font>

  831
  00:44:40.830 --> 00:44:43.227 
  <font color="#008000">Der Energie Club Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#008000">wurde erst 2018 gegründet.</font>

  832
  00:44:43.868 --> 00:44:46.937 
  <font color="#008000">Wir hatten einen rasanten</font>
  <font color="#008000">Mitgliederzuwachs,</font>

  833
  00:44:47.578 --> 00:44:49.708 
  <font color="#008000">der auch immer wieder steigt.</font>

  834
  00:44:50.350 --> 00:44:52.996 
  <font color="#008000">Wir sind nicht zu vergleichen mit</font>
  <font color="#008000">den Möglichkeiten einer Partei.</font>

  835
  00:44:53.637 --> 00:44:55.707 
  <font color="#008000">Genau aus dem Grund</font>
  <font color="#008000">fände ich es eine schlechte Idee,</font>

  836
  00:44:56.351 --> 00:44:58.816 
  <font color="#008000">wenn man es</font>
  <font color="#008000">verbieten würde,</font>

  837
  00:44:59.458 --> 00:45:02.787 
  <font color="#008000">dass man</font>
  <font color="#008000">auf Firmen zurückgreifen kann.</font>

  838
  00:45:03.430 --> 00:45:05.097 
  <font color="#008000">Man muss ein Auge drauf</font>
  <font color="#008000">haben und schauen,</font>

  839
  00:45:05.738 --> 00:45:08.147 
  <font color="#008000">dass keine Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#008000">gefälscht werden,</font>

  840
  00:45:08.788 --> 00:45:10.426 
  <font color="#008000">oder es missbraucht wird.</font>

  841
  00:45:11.068 --> 00:45:13.224 
  <font color="#008000">Zum heutigen Zeitpunkt gibt es gar</font>
  <font color="#008000">keine spezifischen Beweise dafür,</font>

  842
  00:45:13.864 --> 00:45:15.436 
  <font color="#008000">es sind nur Indizien.</font>

  843
  00:45:16.078 --> 00:45:17.457 
  <font color="#008000">Aber es gab noch keine Beweise</font>
  <font color="#008000">dafür,</font>

  844
  00:45:18.098 --> 00:45:19.517 
  <font color="#008000">dass Unterschriften</font>
  <font color="#008000">tatsächlich gefälscht wurden.</font>

  845
  00:45:20.158 --> 00:45:21.769 
  <font color="#008000">Deshalb geht dieser ganze</font>
  <font color="#008000">Medienrummel um dieses Thema</font>

  846
  00:45:22.410 --> 00:45:24.297 
  <font color="#008000">in eine falsche Richtung.</font>

  847
  00:45:24.938 --> 00:45:26.457 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn es an den Kern unserer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Demokratie geht,</font>

  848
  00:45:27.099 --> 00:45:28.996 
  <font color="#00ffff">muss man es diskutieren, auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">heute Abend hier in der "Arena".</font>

  849
  00:45:29.637 --> 00:45:31.534 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mich nimmt noch etwas Wunder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von den Politikern,</font>

  850
  00:45:32.176 --> 00:45:34.207 
  <font color="#00ffff">die auch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in den Gemeinden politisieren.</font>

  851
  00:45:34.848 --> 00:45:37.348 
  <font color="#00ffff">Michael Graber,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sind Stadtrat von Brig-Glis.</font>

  852
  00:45:37.989 --> 00:45:42.515 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sind die Gemeinden</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bis zu einem gewissen Punkt</font>

  853
  00:45:43.156 --> 00:45:45.406 
  <font color="#00ffff">sogar überfordert damit,</font>

  854
  00:45:46.047 --> 00:45:49.167 
  <font color="#00ffff">Unterschriften zu beglaubigen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">funktioniert das System?</font>

  855
  00:45:49.807 --> 00:45:53.346 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin nicht nur im Gemeinderat von</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Brig-Glis, sondern auch ein Notar,</font>

  856
  00:45:53.992 --> 00:45:56.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">der fast jeden Tag selbst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriften beglaubigt.</font>

  857
  00:45:56.808 --> 00:45:58.958 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht dasselbe.</font>

  858
  00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.557 
  <font color="#ffffff">In einer Gemeinde beglaubigen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Unterschrift nicht,</font>

  859
  00:46:03.198 --> 00:46:05.896 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern bestätigen nur, dass diese</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Stimmregister eingetragen sind.</font>

  860
  00:46:06.538 --> 00:46:08.097 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sobald es Auffälligkeiten gibt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wird das gemeldet,</font>

  861
  00:46:08.738 --> 00:46:11.947 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir sehr streng gehandhabt.</font>

  862
  00:46:12.588 --> 00:46:14.967 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn es offensichtlich ist, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jemand richtig unterschrieben hat,</font>

  863
  00:46:15.608 --> 00:46:19.466 
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man es im Zweifel für den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Stimmbürger für gültig anschauen.</font>

  864
  00:46:20.107 --> 00:46:25.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was mir die ganze Diskussion zeigt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist, wie verzweifelt die SP</font>

  865
  00:46:26.183 --> 00:46:28.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Mitte sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an diesem Strohhalm klammern,</font>

  866
  00:46:28.689 --> 00:46:32.317 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Bundeskanzlei und der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundesrat jetzt sagen könnten,</font>

  867
  00:46:32.958 --> 00:46:34.787 
  <font color="#ffffff">sie sistieren alles.</font>

  868
  00:46:35.428 --> 00:46:37.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass sie dann eben doch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keinen Gegenvorschlag bringen.</font>

  869
  00:46:37.757 --> 00:46:39.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und jetzt wurde diese Party</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gecrasht,</font>

  870
  00:46:39.807 --> 00:46:41.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil der Bundesrat gesagt hat,</font>

  871
  00:46:41.845 --> 00:46:43.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es keinen Einfluss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die Initiative gab,</font>

  872
  00:46:43.838 --> 00:46:45.247 
  <font color="#ffffff">und deshalb fällt das natürlich weg.</font>

  873
  00:46:45.888 --> 00:46:47.318 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich stimme Vanessa Meury zu,</font>

  874
  00:46:47.959 --> 00:46:49.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir sollten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Energieversorgung sprechen</font>

  875
  00:46:50.008 --> 00:46:51.387 
  <font color="#ffffff">und nicht über etwas,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das nicht relevant war.</font>

  876
  00:46:52.028 --> 00:46:53.846 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult, Sie haben ebenfalls</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf Gemeindesebene politisiert.</font>

  877
  00:46:54.486 --> 00:46:55.996 
  <font color="#00ffff">Vertrauen Sie diesem System,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie wir es heute haben?</font>

  878
  00:46:56.637 --> 00:46:58.106 
  <font color="#ffffff">Grundsätzlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vertraue ich dem System, ich glaube,</font>

  879
  00:46:58.747 --> 00:47:00.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die meisten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Leute innerhalb von diesem System,</font>

  880
  00:47:00.807 --> 00:47:02.246 
  <font color="#ffffff">sei es bei den Gemeinden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder den Verwaltungen</font>

  881
  00:47:02.888 --> 00:47:04.276 
  <font color="#ffffff">auf kantonaler und Bundesebene,</font>

  882
  00:47:04.918 --> 00:47:06.567 
  <font color="#ffffff">und auch die meisten engagierten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bürgerinnen und Bürger,</font>

  883
  00:47:07.207 --> 00:47:09.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Organisationen und Parteien,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das aus Engagement machen</font>

  884
  00:47:10.048 --> 00:47:11.468 
  <font color="#ffffff">und richtig machen.</font>

  885
  00:47:12.109 --> 00:47:13.786 
  <font color="#ffffff">Grundsätzlich vertraue ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dem System,</font>

  886
  00:47:14.427 --> 00:47:17.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber die Situation hat gezeigt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es missbrauchsanfällig ist.</font>

  887
  00:47:17.929 --> 00:47:19.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und die einfachste Lösung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich habe es bereits gesagt, wäre,</font>

  888
  00:47:20.488 --> 00:47:23.137 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das gewerbemässige</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschriftensammeln</font>

  889
  00:47:23.776 --> 00:47:26.097 
  <font color="#ffffff">kein Geschäftsmodell sein darf.</font>

  890
  00:47:26.738 --> 00:47:29.586 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Wismer) Ich muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf den Angriff reagieren,</font>

  891
  00:47:30.227 --> 00:47:32.486 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man sich an einen Strohhalm</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geklammert hat,</font>

  892
  00:47:33.128 --> 00:47:35.266 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das für ungültig erklärt wird.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist nicht so.</font>

  893
  00:47:35.908 --> 00:47:39.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unser Anliegen ist, dass man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in diesem Bereich sauber arbeitet,</font>

  894
  00:47:39.769 --> 00:47:43.757 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man die Bundesanwaltschaft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">arbeiten lässt.</font>

  895
  00:47:44.398 --> 00:47:48.506 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Verbot,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">da bin ich ganz bei Frau Vincenz,</font>

  896
  00:47:49.147 --> 00:47:52.639 
  <font color="#ffffff">das einfach zu verbieten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist nicht der Weg.</font>

  897
  00:47:53.281 --> 00:47:56.145 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir müssen die Sicherheit haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und diese müssen wir erhöhen.</font>

  898
  00:47:56.786 --> 00:48:01.967 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sonst setzen wir etwas aufs Spiel,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ganz entscheidend ist.</font>

  899
  00:48:02.609 --> 00:48:04.776 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe es vorhin gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Initiative,</font>

  900
  00:48:05.418 --> 00:48:10.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">die nachher an die Urne kommt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das kleinste Problem.</font>

  901
  00:48:10.838 --> 00:48:13.336 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn dann hat die ganze</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Stimmbevölkerung die Möglichkeit,</font>

  902
  00:48:13.981 --> 00:48:15.941 
  <font color="#ffffff">sich dazu zu äussern.</font>

  903
  00:48:16.583 --> 00:48:21.026 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbst wenn sie unter Umständen so</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht zustande gekommen wäre,</font>

  904
  00:48:21.667 --> 00:48:27.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber das endgültige Resultat ist vom</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Volk bestimmt, und das ist richtig.</font>

  905
  00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:30.826 
  <font color="#00ffff">Kommen wir jetzt wieder</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zurück zu unserem Kernthema.</font>

  906
  00:48:31.467 --> 00:48:33.926 
  <font color="#00ffff">Braucht es Kernenergie oder nicht?</font>

  907
  00:48:34.568 --> 00:48:37.947 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das müssen wir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch etwas im Detail diskutieren.</font>

  908
  00:48:38.588 --> 00:48:40.986 
  <font color="#00ffff">Woher soll der Strom der Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in der Schweiz kommen?</font>

  909
  00:48:41.627 --> 00:48:46.278 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Schweiz ist ein Land, das Strom</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">importiert, aber auch exportiert.</font>

  910
  00:48:46.919 --> 00:48:52.821 
  <font color="#00ffff">Auf dieser Grafik sieht man, dass</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">man im Winterhalbjahr regelmässig</font>

  911
  00:48:53.461 --> 00:48:56.787 
  <font color="#00ffff">zu wenig Strom in der Schweiz hat</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und man importieren muss.</font>

  912
  00:48:57.428 --> 00:48:59.676 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sind übrigens Zahlen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus den letzten 20 Jahren.</font>

  913
  00:49:00.317 --> 00:49:04.007 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gerade der Ukraine-Konflikt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hat gezeigt,</font>

  914
  00:49:04.649 --> 00:49:09.057 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass die Abhängigkeit vom</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Ausland problematisch werden kann.</font>

  915
  00:49:09.699 --> 00:49:11.647 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, das haben wir schmerzlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">erfahren müssen</font>

  916
  00:49:12.288 --> 00:49:14.796 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den Strompreisen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die gestiegen sind.</font>

  917
  00:49:15.437 --> 00:49:17.282 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht, weil die Energiestrategie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht geholfen hat,</font>

  918
  00:49:17.924 --> 00:49:20.266 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern weil der Import</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mehr funktioniert hat.</font>

  919
  00:49:20.907 --> 00:49:24.986 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist es wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das haben wir in dem Stromgesetz,</font>

  920
  00:49:25.628 --> 00:49:28.387 
  <font color="#ffffff">über das wir vor drei Monaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abgestimmt haben,</font>

  921
  00:49:29.029 --> 00:49:32.571 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Winterproduktion haben.</font>

  922
  00:49:33.213 --> 00:49:35.626 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb haben wir dort die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rahmenbedingungen geschaffen,</font>

  923
  00:49:36.267 --> 00:49:38.916 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir im Winter mehr Strom haben.</font>

  924
  00:49:39.557 --> 00:49:44.316 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind uns alle hier bewusst,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das eine Herausforderung ist.</font>

  925
  00:49:44.967 --> 00:49:47.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese können wir aber anpacken.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wissen, wie es gehen würde.</font>

  926
  00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:52.414 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben den Pfad,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber wir müssen es umsetzen.</font>

  927
  00:49:53.047 --> 00:49:55.906 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau da stehen wir jetzt noch an.</font>

  928
  00:49:56.547 --> 00:50:00.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir in den nächsten Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleich viel zu bauen,</font>

  929
  00:50:00.727 --> 00:50:02.594 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie wir im letzten Jahr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zugebaut haben,</font>

  930
  00:50:03.235 --> 00:50:06.865 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind wir genau dort,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wo wir uns das Ziel gesetzt haben.</font>

  931
  00:50:07.506 --> 00:50:09.066 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir müssen es machen.</font>

  932
  00:50:09.707 --> 00:50:12.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was mich am meisten umtreibt,</font>

  933
  00:50:13.366 --> 00:50:17.097 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir mit den Gesprächen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über einen Gegenvorschlag</font>

  934
  00:50:17.737 --> 00:50:21.416 
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Sicherheit rausnimmt ...</font>

  935
  00:50:22.058 --> 00:50:25.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Der Gegenvorschlag von</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Albert Rösti ist nur der Artikel,</font>

  936
  00:50:26.567 --> 00:50:28.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Neubauverbot zu streichen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr ist das nicht.</font>

  937
  00:50:29.067 --> 00:50:30.586 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben danach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen offenen Tisch,</font>

  938
  00:50:31.227 --> 00:50:33.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben kein Denkverbot mehr,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kein Technologieverbot.</font>

  939
  00:50:33.647 --> 00:50:35.696 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann alle Handlungsoptionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">prüfen und das machen,</font>

  940
  00:50:36.337 --> 00:50:37.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">was Sinn macht.</font>

  941
  00:50:38.457 --> 00:50:41.015 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin immer noch überzeugt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wasserkraft und Kernkraft ist das,</font>

  942
  00:50:41.656 --> 00:50:43.056 
  <font color="#ffffff">was Bandenergie liefert.</font>

  943
  00:50:43.697 --> 00:50:45.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alles andere kann man dann so</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machen, wie es Sinn macht.</font>

  944
  00:50:46.067 --> 00:50:47.554 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht nicht gerade</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie am Muttsee,</font>

  945
  00:50:48.195 --> 00:50:49.686 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo einer der Wintern</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein milder war,</font>

  946
  00:50:50.327 --> 00:50:52.830 
  <font color="#ffffff">man hatte etwa ein Viertel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weniger Strom</font>

  947
  00:50:53.469 --> 00:50:56.136 
  <font color="#ffffff">und mehrere Solarpanels</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurden schwer beschädigt ...</font>

  948
  00:50:56.777 --> 00:50:59.495 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bez. Bandenergie muss man sagen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es eine Quelle ist,</font>

  949
  00:51:00.137 --> 00:51:02.756 
  <font color="#00ffff">die durchs Band oder regelmässig</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gleich viel Strom liefert.</font>

  950
  00:51:03.397 --> 00:51:09.016 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau, und wir können nicht offen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ohne Denkverbote</font>

  951
  00:51:09.657 --> 00:51:11.456 
  <font color="#ffffff">diskutieren und argumentieren,</font>

  952
  00:51:12.097 --> 00:51:15.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">solange es gesetzlich verordnet</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Technologieverbot gibt.</font>

  953
  00:51:16.248 --> 00:51:17.705 
  <font color="#ffffff">In solch einem innovativen Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie der Schweiz</font>

  954
  00:51:18.346 --> 00:51:19.815 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Technologieverbot zu haben,</font>

  955
  00:51:20.456 --> 00:51:22.356 
  <font color="#ffffff">während dem die ganze Welt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kernkraftwerke macht,</font>

  956
  00:51:22.997 --> 00:51:25.268 
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist einfach nicht schweizerisch.</font>

  957
  00:51:25.908 --> 00:51:28.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Wismer) Hier muss sich einhaken.</font>

  958
  00:51:28.757 --> 00:51:31.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben kein Technologieverbot.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben ein Neubauverbot.</font>

  959
  00:51:32.131 --> 00:51:34.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir treiben die Forschung aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weiter, dass wissen Sie auch,</font>

  960
  00:51:34.646 --> 00:51:36.276 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben einen Lehrstuhl.</font>

  961
  00:51:36.918 --> 00:51:41.196 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Forschung ist niemand gehemmt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und wir können in der Schweiz</font>

  962
  00:51:41.838 --> 00:51:44.786 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Forschung nicht alleine machen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein weltweites Problem.</font>

  963
  00:51:45.427 --> 00:51:47.057 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Forschung geht weiter.</font>

  964
  00:51:47.698 --> 00:51:51.545 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und niemandem in der Schweiz ist es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verboten, sich daran zu beteiligen.</font>

  965
  00:51:52.186 --> 00:51:54.835 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was heute im Gesetz steht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist einzig und alleine,</font>

  966
  00:51:55.477 --> 00:51:57.137 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir mit den Technologien,</font>

  967
  00:51:57.778 --> 00:52:00.786 
  <font color="#ffffff">die jetzt vorhanden sind,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dort nicht neu bauen wollen.</font>

  968
  00:52:01.427 --> 00:52:02.896 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Forschung ohne ...</font>

  969
  00:52:03.537 --> 00:52:05.956 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat das Volk entschieden.</font>

  970
  00:52:06.597 --> 00:52:10.615 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ein Technologieverbot</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine Falschaussage.</font>

  971
  00:52:11.256 --> 00:52:14.195 
  <font color="#ffffff">Eine Forschung ohne Aussicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf einen Neubau</font>

  972
  00:52:14.836 --> 00:52:17.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">für eine neue Technologie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">macht keinen Sinn.</font>

  973
  00:52:18.047 --> 00:52:20.556 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Wismer) Das haben wir in den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">letzten Jahren auch gemacht.</font>

  974
  00:52:21.197 --> 00:52:23.188 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt viel, was im Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einer Kernforschung läuft.</font>

  975
  00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:25.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich an die kleinen modularen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kraftwerke denke,</font>

  976
  00:52:26.368 --> 00:52:28.515 
  <font color="#ffffff">in denen man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf der ganzen Welt forscht,</font>

  977
  00:52:29.156 --> 00:52:30.665 
  <font color="#ffffff">warum sollte man in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Forschung vorangetrieben,</font>

  978
  00:52:31.307 --> 00:52:33.065 
  <font color="#ffffff">solange wir den Neubau verbieten?</font>

  979
  00:52:33.707 --> 00:52:37.726 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann macht es keinen Sinn,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das würde nichts bringen.</font>

  980
  00:52:38.366 --> 00:52:40.658 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Vincenz) Das ist das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was ich vorhin sagen wollte.</font>

  981
  00:52:41.299 --> 00:52:44.510 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist zwar richtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was Priska Wismer-Felder sagt,</font>

  982
  00:52:45.151 --> 00:52:46.675 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Forschung ist nicht verboten.</font>

  983
  00:52:47.317 --> 00:52:49.995 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben einen Lehrstuhl</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an der ETH,</font>

  984
  00:52:50.637 --> 00:52:53.186 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Paul Scherrer Institut,</font>

  985
  00:52:53.826 --> 00:52:55.817 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber ich habe mich mit den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Expert-/innen unterhalten,</font>

  986
  00:52:56.458 --> 00:52:59.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist schon schwierig, insbesondere</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">junge Forscherinnen und Forscher</font>

  987
  00:53:00.167 --> 00:53:02.875 
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Schweiz zu holen, in dem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bereich zu forschen, in einem Land,</font>

  988
  00:53:03.516 --> 00:53:05.795 
  <font color="#ffffff">in dem diese Technologie,</font>

  989
  00:53:06.436 --> 00:53:08.355 
  <font color="#ffffff">zumindest, was die Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anbelangt, verboten ist.</font>

  990
  00:53:08.997 --> 00:53:13.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist wahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine grosse Standortattraktivität,</font>

  991
  00:53:13.838 --> 00:53:15.436 
  <font color="#ffffff">die eine ETH oder ein PSI hat,</font>

  992
  00:53:16.077 --> 00:53:18.016 
  <font color="#ffffff">um diese Brains</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch hierher zu holen.</font>

  993
  00:53:18.657 --> 00:53:23.248 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht wäre es einen Versuch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wert, diese Diskussion,</font>

  994
  00:53:23.889 --> 00:53:28.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">die recht ideologisch geprägt ist -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">so kommt es mir vor -</font>

  995
  00:53:29.457 --> 00:53:32.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Von unserer Seite nicht.</font>

  996
  00:53:33.288 --> 00:53:34.796 
  <font color="#ffffff">Von beiden Seiten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">würde ich vermittelnd sagen.</font>

  997
  00:53:35.437 --> 00:53:36.935 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht sollten wir uns</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einfach einmal</font>

  998
  00:53:37.576 --> 00:53:39.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">über einen Kriterienkatalog</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterhalten.</font>

  999
  00:53:40.327 --> 00:53:42.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was muss eine Energieform bieten,</font>

  1000
  00:53:42.886 --> 00:53:47.306 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit wir diese</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch förderwürdig finden.</font>

  1001
  00:53:47.946 --> 00:53:51.196 
  <font color="#ffffff">So etwas hat der Wirtschafts-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dachverband swisscleantech,</font>

  1002
  00:53:51.837 --> 00:53:55.265 
  <font color="#ffffff">der die klimataugliche Wirtschaft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unter einem Dach hat,</font>

  1003
  00:53:55.906 --> 00:53:58.375 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat so einen Versuch gestartet.</font>

  1004
  00:53:59.016 --> 00:54:00.555 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sind Sie Präsidentin?</font>

  1005
  00:54:01.196 --> 00:54:02.655 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin nicht Präsidentin,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber im Vorstand.</font>

  1006
  00:54:03.296 --> 00:54:04.835 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das wäre auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein schönes Präsidialamt.</font>

  1007
  00:54:05.477 --> 00:54:06.966 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie können sich noch bewerben.</font>

  1008
  00:54:07.607 --> 00:54:09.176 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind zwei super Präsidenten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die wir dort haben.</font>

  1009
  00:54:09.817 --> 00:54:11.315 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich will keinen Werbespot</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für einen Verband machen,</font>

  1010
  00:54:11.956 --> 00:54:13.666 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern für diese Idee.</font>

  1011
  00:54:14.307 --> 00:54:16.715 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass wir uns über die Kriterien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unterhalten, dass wir sagen,</font>

  1012
  00:54:17.357 --> 00:54:20.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">was solch eine Energieform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bieten muss:</font>

  1013
  00:54:20.928 --> 00:54:23.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist Wirtschaftlichkeit.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wo holen wir die Rohstoffe her?</font>

  1014
  00:54:23.928 --> 00:54:25.436 
  <font color="#ffffff">Welches ist der Impact</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Umwelt?</font>

  1015
  00:54:26.077 --> 00:54:28.305 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann könnten wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es etwas versachlichen.</font>

  1016
  00:54:28.946 --> 00:54:31.887 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Das war analytisch sehr gut.</font>

  1017
  00:54:32.528 --> 00:54:34.105 
  <font color="#ffffff">Danke.</font>

  1018
  00:54:34.748 --> 00:54:36.302 
  <font color="#00ffff">Dass wir das auch noch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu hören bekommen ...</font>

  1019
  00:54:36.944 --> 00:54:40.306 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich bin total einverstanden</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit der Methode.</font>

  1020
  00:54:40.947 --> 00:54:44.756 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur glaube ich, ist es für die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Mehrheit des Schweizer Volkes</font>

  1021
  00:54:45.397 --> 00:54:48.505 
  <font color="#ffffff">und zumindest für mich klar,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Kriterien geklärt sind.</font>

  1022
  00:54:49.152 --> 00:54:53.698 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dass AKW diesen Kriterien, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">notwendig sind, nicht entsprechen.</font>

  1023
  00:54:54.339 --> 00:54:57.835 
  <font color="#ffffff">AKW sind nicht wirtschaftlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und tragen in der neuen Welt</font>

  1024
  00:54:58.477 --> 00:55:04.495 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht Versorgungssicherheit bei,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie sind pannenanfällig.</font>

  1025
  00:55:05.136 --> 00:55:07.655 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die grosse Energiekrise</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">2022 war einerseits Putin</font>

  1026
  00:55:08.296 --> 00:55:10.425 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit seinem schrecklichen Angriff</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die Ukraine.</font>

  1027
  00:55:11.066 --> 00:55:14.385 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das war nur deshalb an den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Energiemärkten so schlimm,</font>

  1028
  00:55:15.026 --> 00:55:17.125 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil gleichzeitig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Hälfte der französischen AKW</font>

  1029
  00:55:17.767 --> 00:55:19.946 
  <font color="#ffffff">pannenmässig ausser Betrieb waren.</font>

  1030
  00:55:20.587 --> 00:55:22.525 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und drittens, das ist wahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Hauptgrund,</font>

  1031
  00:55:23.166 --> 00:55:24.976 
  <font color="#ffffff">warum die Schweizerinnen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Schweizer keine neuen AKW -</font>

  1032
  00:55:25.617 --> 00:55:29.385 
  <font color="#ffffff">zumindest bis jetzt - wollen, es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine gefährliche Technologie.</font>

  1033
  00:55:30.026 --> 00:55:35.606 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Eintrittswahrscheinlichkeit von</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einem Gau, einem Unfall, ist klein.</font>

  1034
  00:55:36.247 --> 00:55:40.135 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wenn er eintrifft,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und er ist immer wieder eingetroffen</font>

  1035
  00:55:40.776 --> 00:55:43.935 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann sind die Folgen immens.</font>

  1036
  00:55:44.576 --> 00:55:46.556 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wäre Fukushima</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz passiert,</font>

  1037
  00:55:47.196 --> 00:55:49.345 
  <font color="#ffffff">hätte man wahrscheinlich etwa 1 Mio.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Menschen evakuieren müssen.</font>

  1038
  00:55:49.986 --> 00:55:52.205 
  <font color="#00ffff">Michael Graber ...</font>

  1039
  00:55:52.846 --> 00:55:55.235 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte daran erinnern,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass von den etwa 200 Reaktoren,</font>

  1040
  00:55:55.882 --> 00:55:57.785 
  <font color="#ffffff">die es auf der Welt gibt,</font>

  1041
  00:55:58.426 --> 00:56:00.355 
  <font color="#ffffff">die ihr Lebensende erreicht haben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weiss jemand,</font>

  1042
  00:56:00.996 --> 00:56:03.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">in wie vielen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es eine Kernschmelze gab?</font>

  1043
  00:56:03.886 --> 00:56:08.275 
  <font color="#ffffff">In fünf,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das sind 2,5 % von allen Reaktoren,</font>

  1044
  00:56:08.916 --> 00:56:10.845 
  <font color="#ffffff">die bis jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ihr Lebensende erreicht haben.</font>

  1045
  00:56:11.496 --> 00:56:13.184 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wer steigt in ein Flugzeug,</font>

  1046
  00:56:13.826 --> 00:56:17.025 
  <font color="#ffffff">dessen Absturzwahrscheinlichkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei 2,5 % liegt?</font>

  1047
  00:56:18.254 --> 00:56:21.235 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zunächst zum Punkt gegen Frankreich.</font>

  1048
  00:56:21.876 --> 00:56:25.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gab keine Panne, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kernkraftwerke waren in Revision.</font>

  1049
  00:56:26.046 --> 00:56:28.702 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die bestehenden Kernkraftwerke</font>

  1050
  00:56:29.344 --> 00:56:30.896 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu revidieren und zu unterhalten.</font>

  1051
  00:56:31.537 --> 00:56:32.955 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür müssen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bestehende Lieferketten haben.</font>

  1052
  00:56:33.596 --> 00:56:37.298 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da wir diese nicht haben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">würde die Bauzeit viel länger dauern</font>

  1053
  00:56:37.939 --> 00:56:40.205 
  <font color="#ffffff">als die sechs Jahre Nettobauzeit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die ich genannt habe.</font>

  1054
  00:56:40.846 --> 00:56:42.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der erste Punkt.</font>

  1055
  00:56:42.927 --> 00:56:44.473 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bez. der Kosten:</font>

  1056
  00:56:45.115 --> 00:56:48.078 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der grösste wirtschaftliche Schaden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für dieses Land</font>

  1057
  00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:52.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre ein Stromausfall,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der pro Tag Milliarden kosten würde.</font>

  1058
  00:56:52.808 --> 00:56:55.525 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das können wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Bandenergie vermeiden.</font>

  1059
  00:56:56.166 --> 00:57:00.746 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was die Sicherheit anbelangt ...</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Was Sie bez. der Kernschmelze sagen:</font>

  1060
  00:57:01.388 --> 00:57:03.717 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das waren uralte Reaktoren.</font>

  1061
  00:57:04.359 --> 00:57:08.695 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die neuesten Reaktoren können</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">systeminhärent gekühlt werden.</font>

  1062
  00:57:09.336 --> 00:57:12.365 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kernschmelze ist nach heutigem Stand</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">praktisch ausgeschlossen.</font>

  1063
  00:57:13.006 --> 00:57:15.505 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist extrem sicher.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat überall Risiken.</font>

  1064
  00:57:16.146 --> 00:57:18.985 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Sendung "Tschugger" geschaut.</font>

  1065
  00:57:19.627 --> 00:57:22.215 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Die haben wir alle geschaut.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Die haben wir alle gesehen.</font>

  1066
  00:57:22.857 --> 00:57:24.294 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie wollten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Grande-Dixence sprengen.</font>

  1067
  00:57:24.935 --> 00:57:27.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wenn diese gesprengt wird,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bin ich in Brig auch unter Wasser.</font>

  1068
  00:57:27.646 --> 00:57:29.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt kritische Infrastrukturen,</font>

  1069
  00:57:29.886 --> 00:57:31.489 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit denen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sorgfältig umgehen müssen.</font>

  1070
  00:57:32.130 --> 00:57:34.406 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt auch in der Chemie Dinge,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die gefährlich sind.</font>

  1071
  00:57:35.047 --> 00:57:37.085 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir wollen auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die ganze Chemieindustrie verbieten.</font>

  1072
  00:57:37.726 --> 00:57:44.487 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb muss man forschen und Neu-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bauten zulassen von modernen AKW.</font>

  1073
  00:57:45.128 --> 00:57:48.005 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es kommen viele Argumente zusammen.</font>

  1074
  00:57:48.646 --> 00:57:51.047 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist ein Moment,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">etwas zusammenzutragen.</font>

  1075
  00:57:51.686 --> 00:57:57.924 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben landläufige Argumente</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mitgebracht, drei pro, drei contra.</font>

  1076
  00:57:59.934 --> 00:58:03.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Schweiz sind noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vier Kernkraftwerke in Betrieb:</font>

  1077
  00:58:03.686 --> 00:58:06.820 
  <font color="#ffffff">Beznau 1, Beznau 2,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gösgen und Leibstadt.</font>

  1078
  00:58:08.229 --> 00:58:12.205 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Vorteil von Kernkraftwerken:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie gelten als verlässlich.</font>

  1079
  00:58:12.847 --> 00:58:16.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">D.h.: Sie produzieren kontinuierlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleich viel Strom.</font>

  1080
  00:58:17.990 --> 00:58:21.521 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Nachteil: Für den Bau</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines neuen Kernkraftwerkes</font>

  1081
  00:58:22.161 --> 00:58:24.535 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind hohe Anfangsinvestitionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">notwendig.</font>

  1082
  00:58:25.176 --> 00:58:28.935 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Neubau sei derzeit nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rentabel, sagen Energiekonzerne.</font>

  1083
  00:58:30.431 --> 00:58:34.534 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür stossen Kernkraftwerke</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Betrieb kaum CO2 aus.</font>

  1084
  00:58:36.489 --> 00:58:38.834 
  <font color="#ffffff">Anders</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als z.B. bei einem Kohlekraftwerk</font>

  1085
  00:58:39.476 --> 00:58:41.767 
  <font color="#ffffff">werden keine fossilen Brennstoffe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verbrannt.</font>

  1086
  00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.195 
  <font color="#ffffff">Doch Kernkraftwerke</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verursachen radioaktive Abfälle,</font>

  1087
  00:58:47.837 --> 00:58:50.354 
  <font color="#ffffff">die über Jahrhunderte in Tiefen-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">lagern deponiert werden müssen.</font>

  1088
  00:58:51.929 --> 00:58:54.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">Geeignete Standorte zu finden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist schwierig.</font>

  1089
  00:58:55.879 --> 00:59:00.706 
  <font color="#ffffff">Allerdings ist Atomenergie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">punkto Raumbedarf effizient:</font>

  1090
  00:59:01.347 --> 00:59:03.035 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auf geringer Fläche</font>

  1091
  00:59:03.678 --> 00:59:05.495 
  <font color="#ffffff">wird vergleichsweise viel Strom</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hergestellt.</font>

  1092
  00:59:06.929 --> 00:59:10.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Risiko einer Nuklearkatastrophe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist zwar sehr gering.</font>

  1093
  00:59:11.525 --> 00:59:16.035 
  <font color="#ffffff">Käme es aber dennoch zu einem Super-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">GAU, wären die Folgen verheerend.</font>

  1094
  00:59:18.229 --> 00:59:20.845 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ein Argument möchte ich rauspicken.</font>

  1095
  00:59:21.476 --> 00:59:24.395 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben vorhin von Rentabilität</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gesprochen, Michael Graber.</font>

  1096
  00:59:25.036 --> 00:59:29.984 
  <font color="#00ffff">Haben Sie wirklich das Gefühl,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass diese AKW noch rentabel sind,</font>

  1097
  00:59:30.625 --> 00:59:32.097 
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn man sie neu baut?</font>

  1098
  00:59:32.736 --> 00:59:34.205 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frage ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie dieses Projekt aussehen würde.</font>

  1099
  00:59:34.850 --> 00:59:36.366 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man müsste zuerst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein Projekt vorschlagen,</font>

  1100
  00:59:37.007 --> 00:59:38.465 
  <font color="#ffffff">um etwas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Finanzen sagen zu können.</font>

  1101
  00:59:39.107 --> 00:59:40.537 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist etwas früh dafür.</font>

  1102
  00:59:41.176 --> 00:59:43.000 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Gegenvorschlag ist nur,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Technologieverbot aufzuheben.</font>

  1103
  00:59:43.642 --> 00:59:45.104 
  <font color="#ffffff">Um auf Ihre Frage zurückzukommen:</font>

  1104
  00:59:45.745 --> 00:59:47.454 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, sonst würde man weltweit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht in fast allen Ländern,</font>

  1105
  00:59:48.095 --> 00:59:49.547 
  <font color="#ffffff">die wirtschaftlich vorwärtsmachen,</font>

  1106
  00:59:50.188 --> 00:59:52.120 
  <font color="#ffffff">ein grosses Wirtschaftswachstum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben, wie Indien und China usw.,</font>

  1107
  00:59:52.761 --> 00:59:54.352 
  <font color="#ffffff">überall neue Kernkraftwerke bauen.</font>

  1108
  00:59:54.987 --> 00:59:57.355 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Gestehungskosten sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vergleichbar mit den Erneuerbaren,</font>

  1109
  00:59:57.996 --> 00:59:59.786 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber die Systemkosten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind massiv teurer.</font>

  1110
  01:00:00.427 --> 01:00:02.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wird es insgesamt viel günstiger.</font>

  1111
  01:00:03.525 --> 01:00:06.344 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das grösste Schadensrisiko</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre ein Totalausfall.</font>

  1112
  01:00:06.986 --> 01:00:10.054 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Kernenergie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die beste Versicherung dagegen.</font>

  1113
  01:00:10.696 --> 01:00:12.725 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie müsse mir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch eine andere Frage beantworten.</font>

  1114
  01:00:13.366 --> 01:00:15.445 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Energieunternehmen sagen,</font>

  1115
  01:00:16.086 --> 01:00:18.274 
  <font color="#00ffff">sie hätten ein Problem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit der Finanzierung.</font>

  1116
  01:00:18.915 --> 01:00:21.474 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Axpo-Chef Christoph Brand z.B.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">spricht von:</font>

  1117
  01:00:22.115 --> 01:00:30.575 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Berner BKW spricht von:</font>

  1118
  01:00:32.399 --> 01:00:35.774 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und für Alpiq:</font>

  1119
  01:00:37.299 --> 01:00:39.704 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wer soll es denn zahlen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn nicht sie?</font>

  1120
  01:00:40.345 --> 01:00:41.894 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir Steuerzahler/-innen?</font>

  1121
  01:00:42.535 --> 01:00:44.004 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Eigentümer dieser Konzerne</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind die Kantone,</font>

  1122
  01:00:44.645 --> 01:00:46.034 
  <font color="#ffffff">also die öffentliche Hand.</font>

  1123
  01:00:46.676 --> 01:00:48.084 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Manager Christoph Brand</font>

  1124
  01:00:48.726 --> 01:00:50.334 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat früher mit dem "Tages-Anzeiger"</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammengearbeitet.</font>

  1125
  01:00:50.976 --> 01:00:53.463 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich würde ein Fragezeichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hinter dieses Statement setzen.</font>

  1126
  01:00:54.104 --> 01:00:56.104 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die BKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat in dieser Ausstiegseuphorie</font>

  1127
  01:00:56.746 --> 01:00:59.685 
  <font color="#ffffff">vorschnell Mühleberg abgestellt,</font>

  1128
  01:01:00.327 --> 01:01:02.064 
  <font color="#ffffff">da man sagte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es sei nicht mehr rentabel.</font>

  1129
  01:01:02.706 --> 01:01:04.294 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aus Sicht des Managements</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war das nachvollziehbar,</font>

  1130
  01:01:04.941 --> 01:01:07.977 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber man müsste 200-300 Mio.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Sicherheit investieren.</font>

  1131
  01:01:08.619 --> 01:01:10.219 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das tat man nicht.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat Mühleberg geschlossen.</font>

  1132
  01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:13.514 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben wir über 500 Mio. investiert</font>

  1133
  01:01:14.155 --> 01:01:18.794 
  <font color="#ffffff">für das Notkraftwerk in Birr,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Simonetta Sommaruga</font>

  1134
  01:01:19.438 --> 01:01:22.371 
  <font color="#ffffff">laut Bundesverwaltungsgericht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">illegal gemacht hat.</font>

  1135
  01:01:23.012 --> 01:01:27.465 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zum Glück hat sie das gemacht, sonst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hätten wir ein massives Problem.</font>

  1136
  01:01:28.107 --> 01:01:29.986 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die linke Seite</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat man dazu nie gehört.</font>

  1137
  01:01:30.631 --> 01:01:34.234 
  <font color="#ffffff">Birr produziert weniger Strom</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Mühleberg.</font>

  1138
  01:01:34.875 --> 01:01:37.224 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben wieder einen direkten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Angriff auf eine SP-Bundesrätin,</font>

  1139
  01:01:37.865 --> 01:01:39.426 
  <font color="#00ffff">die nicht mehr im Amt ist.</font>

  1140
  01:01:40.068 --> 01:01:41.674 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult, Ihr Konter?</font>

  1141
  01:01:42.316 --> 01:01:45.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">Simonetta Sommaruga ist eine ge-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">festigte, souveräne Persönlichkeit.</font>

  1142
  01:01:45.845 --> 01:01:47.454 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie muss nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von mir in Schutz genommen werden.</font>

  1143
  01:01:48.095 --> 01:01:49.744 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist einfach unnötig,</font>

  1144
  01:01:50.385 --> 01:01:52.884 
  <font color="#ffffff">so über ehemalige Bundesrät/-innen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu sprechen.</font>

  1145
  01:01:53.525 --> 01:01:55.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich sagte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie das zum Glück gemacht habe.</font>

  1146
  01:01:55.806 --> 01:01:57.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das war mutig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und es wurde gebraucht.</font>

  1147
  01:01:58.126 --> 01:02:00.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber dass man 500 Mio., mehr als</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine halbe Milliarde gezahlt hat</font>

  1148
  01:02:01.046 --> 01:02:03.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">für ein Notkraftwerk,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das auch noch dreckig ist,</font>

  1149
  01:02:03.805 --> 01:02:06.214 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo man mit Öl und Gas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Strom produziert,</font>

  1150
  01:02:06.855 --> 01:02:08.674 
  <font color="#ffffff">was eine Dreckschleuder ist ...</font>

  1151
  01:02:09.315 --> 01:02:11.704 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das zu tun und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleichzeitig Mühleberg abzustellen</font>

  1152
  01:02:12.346 --> 01:02:16.066 
  <font color="#ffffff">wegen 200-300 Mio. für die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicherheit, finde ich problematisch.</font>

  1153
  01:02:16.706 --> 01:02:19.224 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Eigner sind in der Pflicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Kantone,</font>

  1154
  01:02:19.866 --> 01:02:22.724 
  <font color="#ffffff">die für die Energieversorgung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zuständig sind.</font>

  1155
  01:02:23.365 --> 01:02:25.344 
  <font color="#00ffff">Noch eine andere Frage.</font>

  1156
  01:02:25.985 --> 01:02:28.274 
  <font color="#00ffff">Solar-, Wind- und Wasserenergie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">werden vom Bund subventioniert.</font>

  1157
  01:02:28.915 --> 01:02:32.385 
  <font color="#00ffff">Weshalb nicht auch Kernkraft?</font>

  1158
  01:02:33.026 --> 01:02:36.165 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die CO2-Bilanz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sieht nicht so schlecht aus.</font>

  1159
  01:02:36.979 --> 01:02:41.734 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben den Fonds, der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von den Leuten mit ihrem Geld ...</font>

  1160
  01:02:42.375 --> 01:02:46.334 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn sie Energie beziehen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine Abgabe drauf.</font>

  1161
  01:02:46.975 --> 01:02:49.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die meiste Förderung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommt aus diesem Topf.</font>

  1162
  01:02:50.205 --> 01:02:56.579 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieser Fördertopf</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war immer sehr umstritten.</font>

  1163
  01:02:57.221 --> 01:03:01.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade Herr Graber selbst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat ihn immer bekämpft.</font>

  1164
  01:03:01.785 --> 01:03:04.882 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe sehr gestaunt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">denn die ersten,</font>

  1165
  01:03:05.524 --> 01:03:09.074 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich in diesem Topf</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bedienen wollten für die AKW,</font>

  1166
  01:03:09.716 --> 01:03:12.924 
  <font color="#ffffff">waren genau die Exponenten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus diesen Parteien.</font>

  1167
  01:03:13.565 --> 01:03:17.014 
  <font color="#ffffff">Herr Graber sagte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Herr Brand sage das nur so.</font>

  1168
  01:03:17.655 --> 01:03:23.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich weiss nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wer das besser beurteilen kann.</font>

  1169
  01:03:24.405 --> 01:03:28.534 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber niemand würde ein solches</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf privater Basis bauen.</font>

  1170
  01:03:29.176 --> 01:03:34.191 
  <font color="#ffffff">Überall macht es der Staat, auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in China und in den anderen Ländern,</font>

  1171
  01:03:34.832 --> 01:03:36.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">die er aufgezählt hat, Indien ...</font>

  1172
  01:03:37.068 --> 01:03:39.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  1173
  01:03:39.785 --> 01:03:42.014 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das bringt mich nochmals zu Ihnen.</font>

  1174
  01:03:42.654 --> 01:03:45.124 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ihre Initiative</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">will den Weg für neue AKW öffnen.</font>

  1175
  01:03:45.775 --> 01:03:48.744 
  <font color="#00ffff">Weshalb, wenn man sieht,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass die Finanzierung,</font>

  1176
  01:03:49.385 --> 01:03:50.914 
  <font color="#00ffff">zumindest</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vonseiten der Privatwirtschaft,</font>

  1177
  01:03:51.555 --> 01:03:52.961 
  <font color="#00ffff">ziemlich schwierig ist?</font>

  1178
  01:03:53.595 --> 01:03:55.204 
  <font color="#008000">Zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt ist es so,</font>

  1179
  01:03:55.845 --> 01:03:57.814 
  <font color="#008000">dass wir ein Verbot</font>
  <font color="#008000">für neue Kernkraftwerke haben.</font>

  1180
  01:03:58.456 --> 01:04:01.684 
  <font color="#008000">Mitunter ist klar,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass wir keine Investoren finden,</font>

  1181
  01:04:02.325 --> 01:04:05.743 
  <font color="#008000">die ihn etwas Verbotenes</font>
  <font color="#008000">investieren wollen.</font>

  1182
  01:04:06.385 --> 01:04:09.654 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist wirtschaftlich klar.</font>
  <font color="#008000">Was mir in dieser Diskussion fehlt:</font>

  1183
  01:04:10.295 --> 01:04:13.204 
  <font color="#008000">Weshalb haben wir unsere Initiative</font>
  <font color="#008000">überhaupt eingereicht?</font>

  1184
  01:04:13.845 --> 01:04:15.615 
  <font color="#008000">Weil wir den Weg, den wir</font>
  <font color="#008000">einschlagen, zwar gut finden,</font>

  1185
  01:04:16.255 --> 01:04:18.384 
  <font color="#008000">vielleicht nicht alle Technologien,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die in diesem Gesetz drin sind,</font>

  1186
  01:04:19.025 --> 01:04:20.765 
  <font color="#008000">aber das ist ein anderes Thema,</font>

  1187
  01:04:21.406 --> 01:04:24.713 
  <font color="#008000">aber die Strategie, die wir jetzt</font>
  <font color="#008000">verfolgen, reicht einfach nicht.</font>

  1188
  01:04:25.354 --> 01:04:27.074 
  <font color="#008000">Der Ausbau der Erneuerbaren</font>
  <font color="#008000">reicht nicht einmal</font>

  1189
  01:04:27.714 --> 01:04:29.674 
  <font color="#008000">für die Dekarbonisierung.</font>
  <font color="#008000">Es braucht ein Back-up.</font>

  1190
  01:04:30.315 --> 01:04:32.425 
  <font color="#008000">Auch wenn wir die ganze Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit Solar vollpflastern,</font>

  1191
  01:04:33.065 --> 01:04:34.654 
  <font color="#008000">reicht es einfach nicht.</font>

  1192
  01:04:35.294 --> 01:04:37.152 
  <font color="#008000">Das sieht man auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">den Importen im Winter an.</font>

  1193
  01:04:37.793 --> 01:04:39.665 
  <font color="#008000">Dort liegt das Hauptproblem,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wir sind aufs Ausland angewiesen.</font>

  1194
  01:04:40.306 --> 01:04:41.734 
  <font color="#008000">Wir brauchen Bandenergie,</font>

  1195
  01:04:42.375 --> 01:04:44.784 
  <font color="#008000">das können wir nur</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit der Kernenergie gewährleisten.</font>

  1196
  01:04:45.426 --> 01:04:47.024 
  <font color="#008000">Deshalb haben wir</font>
  <font color="#008000">die Initiative eingereicht.</font>

  1197
  01:04:47.665 --> 01:04:50.282 
  <font color="#008000">Ich finde die Technologieoffenheit</font>
  <font color="#008000">wichtig.</font>

  1198
  01:04:50.919 --> 01:04:54.774 
  <font color="#008000">Die Argumente der Linksgrünen</font>
  <font color="#008000">sind seit Jahren die gleichen:</font>

  1199
  01:04:55.415 --> 01:04:58.123 
  <font color="#008000">zu teuer, nicht wirtschaftlich,</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Bau dauert zu lange,</font>

  1200
  01:04:58.764 --> 01:05:00.613 
  <font color="#008000">das Abfallproblem sei nicht gelöst.</font>

  1201
  01:05:01.254 --> 01:05:04.244 
  <font color="#008000">Für all diese Probleme</font>
  <font color="#008000">haben wir faktische Gegenargumente.</font>

  1202
  01:05:04.885 --> 01:05:08.004 
  <font color="#008000">Z.B. das PSI,</font>
  <font color="#008000">das Paul Scherrer Institut,</font>

  1203
  01:05:08.645 --> 01:05:12.515 
  <font color="#008000">das führende Forschungsinstrument</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Schweiz, hat klar dargelegt,</font>

  1204
  01:05:13.156 --> 01:05:15.033 
  <font color="#008000">dass die Kernenergie</font>
  <font color="#008000">wirtschaftlich ist.</font>

  1205
  01:05:15.675 --> 01:05:18.104 
  <font color="#008000">Sie ist günstig. Das Problem</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit dem Abfall ist gelöst.</font>

  1206
  01:05:18.744 --> 01:05:22.154 
  <font color="#008000">Und es könnte schnell gebaut werden.</font>

  1207
  01:05:22.795 --> 01:05:24.434 
  <font color="#008000">Ich finde es fragwürdig,</font>

  1208
  01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:27.865 
  <font color="#008000">dass ein gewählter Nationalrat</font>
  <font color="#008000">bei solchen Argumenten immer lacht,</font>

  1209
  01:05:28.506 --> 01:05:32.114 
  <font color="#008000">wenn man Gegenargumente bringt,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die faktisch ...</font>

  1210
  01:05:32.755 --> 01:05:35.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Bei allem Respekt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist einfach falsch.</font>

  1211
  01:05:36.324 --> 01:05:39.714 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass das Endlagerproblem,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Atommüllproblem gelöst ist,</font>

  1212
  01:05:40.355 --> 01:05:41.854 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist faktisch falsch.</font>

  1213
  01:05:42.495 --> 01:05:43.985 
  <font color="#008000">Weshalb?</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Weil wir noch keine Lösung haben.</font>

  1214
  01:05:44.627 --> 01:05:46.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Graber) Wir haben einen Standort.</font>

  1215
  01:05:46.785 --> 01:05:50.537 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt aber noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keinen rechtsgültigen Beschluss.</font>

  1216
  01:05:51.178 --> 01:05:56.973 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Nagra selbst sagte - das muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man in diesem Zusammenhang sagen -,</font>

  1217
  01:05:57.615 --> 01:06:00.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">falls man wirklich neue AKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bauen und betreiben würde,</font>

  1218
  01:06:01.205 --> 01:06:02.704 
  <font color="#ffffff">bräuchte es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch einen zweiten Standort.</font>

  1219
  01:06:03.345 --> 01:06:05.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Problem ist überhaupt nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gelöst - seit Jahrzehnten.</font>

  1220
  01:06:06.607 --> 01:06:08.479 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dies ist das Zitat der Nagra.</font>

  1221
  01:06:09.120 --> 01:06:10.763 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie ist dafür zuständig,</font>

  1222
  01:06:11.404 --> 01:06:14.315 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass die radioaktiven Abfälle</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">richtig gelagert werden auf Zeit.</font>

  1223
  01:06:27.260 --> 01:06:29.373 
  <font color="#008000">Haben wir einen zweiten Standort,</font>

  1224
  01:06:30.015 --> 01:06:31.553 
  <font color="#008000">bei dem die gleichen Voraussetzungen</font>
  <font color="#008000">gewährt sind</font>

  1225
  01:06:32.195 --> 01:06:33.574 
  <font color="#008000">wie sie die Nagra</font>
  <font color="#008000">beim ersten Standort hat,</font>

  1226
  01:06:34.214 --> 01:06:35.634 
  <font color="#008000">haben wir kein Problem.</font>

  1227
  01:06:36.276 --> 01:06:37.694 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist politisch umstritten, ja,</font>

  1228
  01:06:38.337 --> 01:06:39.774 
  <font color="#008000">aber man hat einen Standort,</font>
  <font color="#008000">um es zu lagern.</font>

  1229
  01:06:40.415 --> 01:06:42.844 
  <font color="#008000">Aktuell haben wir ein Zwischenlager,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wo die Kernabfälle gelagert werden.</font>

  1230
  01:06:43.486 --> 01:06:44.983 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist überhaupt kein Problem,</font>
  <font color="#008000">im Gegenteil:</font>

  1231
  01:06:45.626 --> 01:06:47.073 
  <font color="#008000">Ich finde sogar,</font>

  1232
  01:06:47.715 --> 01:06:51.414 
  <font color="#008000">der Abfall der Kernenergie ist</font>
  <font color="#008000">ein Argument für die Kernenergie.</font>

  1233
  01:06:52.055 --> 01:06:54.291 
  <font color="#008000">Vergleichsweise</font>
  <font color="#008000">zu anderen Produktionsarten,</font>

  1234
  01:06:54.923 --> 01:06:56.404 
  <font color="#008000">zu erneuerbaren Energien,</font>

  1235
  01:06:57.046 --> 01:07:01.333 
  <font color="#008000">hat die Kernkraft mit Abstand</font>
  <font color="#008000">den kleinsten Abfallanteil.</font>

  1236
  01:07:01.974 --> 01:07:05.276 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gioia Benninger, Vertrauen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in den technologischen Fortschritt?</font>

  1237
  01:07:05.918 --> 01:07:09.086 
  <font color="#ffff00">Nein, überhaupt nicht.</font>

  1238
  01:07:09.728 --> 01:07:12.326 
  <font color="#ffff00">Erstens ist Uran nicht unendlich,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das ist das erste Problem.</font>

  1239
  01:07:12.967 --> 01:07:15.064 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Mehrheit des Urans</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">liegt unter indigenem Land,</font>

  1240
  01:07:15.705 --> 01:07:17.993 
  <font color="#ffff00">was auch problematisch ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn man es einfach dort abbaut.</font>

  1241
  01:07:18.634 --> 01:07:21.973 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und auch der CO2-Ausstoss</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">beim Uranabbau wird immer grösser,</font>

  1242
  01:07:22.614 --> 01:07:24.121 
  <font color="#ffff00">weil man immer schwereren Bergbau</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">betreiben muss,</font>

  1243
  01:07:24.762 --> 01:07:26.733 
  <font color="#ffff00">da das Uran nicht mehr so einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zugänglich ist wie aktuell.</font>

  1244
  01:07:27.375 --> 01:07:29.804 
  <font color="#ffff00">D.h.:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">AKW werden immer CO2-intensiver.</font>

  1245
  01:07:30.445 --> 01:07:33.854 
  <font color="#ffff00">Auch das Endlagerproblem</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist wirklich nicht gelöst.</font>

  1246
  01:07:34.495 --> 01:07:36.033 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir haben</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">keinen rechtsgültigen Beschluss,</font>

  1247
  01:07:36.674 --> 01:07:38.103 
  <font color="#ffff00">wie Jon Pult vorhin gesagt hat.</font>

  1248
  01:07:38.744 --> 01:07:40.323 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das Zwischenlager</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist auch nicht sicher.</font>

  1249
  01:07:40.965 --> 01:07:42.403 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir müssen das zuerst lösen,</font>

  1250
  01:07:43.045 --> 01:07:44.650 
  <font color="#ffff00">man kann nicht einfach</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">immer mehr Atommüll produzieren</font>

  1251
  01:07:45.291 --> 01:07:46.643 
  <font color="#ffff00">und das</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">den nächsten Generationen aufhalsen.</font>

  1252
  01:07:47.285 --> 01:07:50.954 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das geht nicht. Dieses Problem haben</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wir bei erneuerbaren Energien nicht.</font>

  1253
  01:07:51.595 --> 01:07:53.060 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist nicht ehrlich.</font>

  1254
  01:07:53.694 --> 01:07:55.153 
  <font color="#008000">Dann müsste man generell</font>
  <font color="#008000">über alle Abfälle,</font>

  1255
  01:07:55.794 --> 01:07:57.177 
  <font color="#008000">die auf der Welt produziert werden,</font>

  1256
  01:07:57.818 --> 01:07:59.453 
  <font color="#008000">insbesondere über</font>
  <font color="#008000">die chemischen Abfälle, diskutieren.</font>

  1257
  01:08:00.094 --> 01:08:02.924 
  <font color="#008000">Diese zersetzen sich nicht im</font>
  <font color="#008000">Vergleich zu radioaktiven Abfällen.</font>

  1258
  01:08:03.564 --> 01:08:05.253 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das geht zu weit.</font>

  1259
  01:08:05.895 --> 01:08:08.544 
  <font color="#00ffff">Christian Bär,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sehen es nochmals anders,</font>

  1260
  01:08:09.185 --> 01:08:12.333 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben auch Angst</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vor der Abhängigkeit.</font>

  1261
  01:08:12.974 --> 01:08:20.926 
  <font color="#008000">Ich sehe, dass sich die Ausganslage</font>
  <font color="#008000">seit 2017 verändert hat.</font>

  1262
  01:08:21.567 --> 01:08:26.014 
  <font color="#008000">In technischer Form</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit den Kriegen in Europa,</font>

  1263
  01:08:26.654 --> 01:08:28.895 
  <font color="#008000">das nicht mehr so schweizfreundlich</font>
  <font color="#008000">ist.</font>

  1264
  01:08:29.536 --> 01:08:31.103 
  <font color="#008000">Und auch technisch.</font>

  1265
  01:08:31.745 --> 01:08:38.433 
  <font color="#008000">Die heutigen Atommeiler</font>
  <font color="#008000">produzieren viel weniger Atomabfall.</font>

  1266
  01:08:39.075 --> 01:08:41.219 
  <font color="#008000">90 % weniger.</font>

  1267
  01:08:41.859 --> 01:08:46.924 
  <font color="#008000">D.h. mit 10 % kann man heute genau</font>
  <font color="#008000">gleich viel Energie produzieren</font>

  1268
  01:08:47.566 --> 01:08:51.283 
  <font color="#008000">mit Atommeilern,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wie man früher mit 100 % konnte.</font>

  1269
  01:08:51.924 --> 01:08:55.353 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist so, da können Sie lachen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wie sie wollen.</font>

  1270
  01:08:55.995 --> 01:08:58.252 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ueli Aebersold.</font>
  <font color="#008000">- Nein, ich bin noch nicht fertig.</font>

  1271
  01:08:58.895 --> 01:09:02.542 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was kommt da noch?</font>
  <font color="#008000">- Ich bin noch nicht fertig.</font>

  1272
  01:09:03.184 --> 01:09:04.903 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich habe Sie vorhin abgeklemmt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">jetzt dürfen Sie.</font>

  1273
  01:09:05.544 --> 01:09:07.024 
  <font color="#008000">Stellen Sie sich vor,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die Energiekonzerne sagen:</font>

  1274
  01:09:07.665 --> 01:09:11.002 
  <font color="#008000">"Toll, wir dürfen wieder</font>
  <font color="#008000">Atommeiler aufstellen".</font>

  1275
  01:09:11.645 --> 01:09:14.666 
  <font color="#008000">Welche Unruhe</font>
  <font color="#008000">in der Politik aufkommen würde ...</font>

  1276
  01:09:15.308 --> 01:09:18.934 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist logisch, dass</font>
  <font color="#008000">diese Konzerne sich heraushalten</font>

  1277
  01:09:19.575 --> 01:09:23.872 
  <font color="#008000">aus der Diskussion und erst schauen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">was passiert.</font>

  1278
  01:09:24.514 --> 01:09:30.223 
  <font color="#008000">Das dritte: 2017 bestimmte man,</font>

  1279
  01:09:30.863 --> 01:09:34.144 
  <font color="#008000">dass man aus der Atomenergie</font>
  <font color="#008000">aussteigen wolle.</font>

  1280
  01:09:34.783 --> 01:09:37.943 
  <font color="#008000">Aber, meine Leute,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wir sind eine Demokratie.</font>

  1281
  01:09:38.584 --> 01:09:43.313 
  <font color="#008000">In einer Demokratie sind Entscheide</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht in Stein gemeisselt.</font>

  1282
  01:09:43.953 --> 01:09:47.014 
  <font color="#008000">D.h.: Man kann die Diskussion</font>
  <font color="#008000">gut wieder aufnehmen.</font>

  1283
  01:09:47.654 --> 01:09:53.227 
  <font color="#008000">Ich denke, Sie wollen es nicht</font>
  <font color="#008000">nochmals auf den Tisch bringen,</font>

  1284
  01:09:53.867 --> 01:09:56.933 
  <font color="#008000">dass die Leute plötzlich wieder</font>
  <font color="#008000">für die Atomenergie sind.</font>

  1285
  01:09:57.574 --> 01:10:01.244 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das haben wir bereits</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">anfangs der Sendung besprochen.</font>

  1286
  01:10:01.886 --> 01:10:04.135 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was mich noch interessiert:</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Technologiefortschritt.</font>

  1287
  01:10:04.776 --> 01:10:08.443 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ueli Aebersold,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">finden Sie, da muss man dranbleiben,</font>

  1288
  01:10:09.084 --> 01:10:10.604 
  <font color="#00ffff">schauen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie sich die AKW entwickeln?</font>

  1289
  01:10:11.246 --> 01:10:12.733 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">kommt plötzlich der Moment,</font>

  1290
  01:10:13.378 --> 01:10:14.973 
  <font color="#00ffff">wo es ein neues braucht.</font>

  1291
  01:10:15.614 --> 01:10:18.483 
  <font color="#ffff00">Grundsätzlich denke ich auch, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">es gut ist, wenn man weiterforscht,</font>

  1292
  01:10:19.124 --> 01:10:24.563 
  <font color="#ffff00">die Technologien</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">weiterentwickeln kann.</font>

  1293
  01:10:25.205 --> 01:10:29.524 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber bis so etwas</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in eine Produktionsreife kommt,</font>

  1294
  01:10:30.165 --> 01:10:35.973 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass es eingesetzt werden könnte,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">müssen wir die Stromlücke,</font>

  1295
  01:10:36.614 --> 01:10:40.123 
  <font color="#ffff00">die es durch die Abschaltung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der bestehenden AKW gibt,</font>

  1296
  01:10:40.764 --> 01:10:45.733 
  <font color="#ffff00">die vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">im Rahmen von 2040 läuft,</font>

  1297
  01:10:46.374 --> 01:10:48.382 
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn es gut läuft, vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">auch noch zwei, drei Jahre länger,</font>

  1298
  01:10:49.024 --> 01:10:53.157 
  <font color="#ffff00">mit alternativer Energie,</font>

  1299
  01:10:53.794 --> 01:10:57.854 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wasser-, Wind- und Sonnenenergie</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">kompensieren können.</font>

  1300
  01:10:58.495 --> 01:11:03.023 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir müssen dort</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die vollen Kräfte investieren,</font>

  1301
  01:11:03.664 --> 01:11:07.142 
  <font color="#ffff00">um die Stromlücke ...</font>

  1302
  01:11:07.782 --> 01:11:10.693 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch zum Abfallproblem.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult hat gelacht.</font>

  1303
  01:11:11.334 --> 01:11:14.663 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wurde gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Standortproblem gelöst sei.</font>

  1304
  01:11:15.310 --> 01:11:16.803 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber auch in der Medizin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt es radioaktive Abfälle,</font>

  1305
  01:11:17.444 --> 01:11:18.873 
  <font color="#ffffff">die man lagern muss.</font>

  1306
  01:11:19.514 --> 01:11:20.943 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das mit den chemischen Abfällen ...</font>

  1307
  01:11:21.584 --> 01:11:23.892 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich wohne im Oberwallis, dort haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir die Lonza, ein grosses Problem.</font>

  1308
  01:11:24.534 --> 01:11:26.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind ewige Gifte,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich vermutlich nicht zersetzen</font>

  1309
  01:11:27.524 --> 01:11:29.444 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie radioaktive Abfälle.</font>

  1310
  01:11:30.086 --> 01:11:33.453 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt neue Technologien, mit denen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man die Abfälle recyceln kann,</font>

  1311
  01:11:34.094 --> 01:11:35.813 
  <font color="#ffffff">die viel weniger Abfall produzieren.</font>

  1312
  01:11:36.454 --> 01:11:42.012 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ihr immer alles verbieten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wollt, wird der Strom viel teurer.</font>

  1313
  01:11:42.654 --> 01:11:44.732 
  <font color="#ffffff">Eigentlich solltet ihr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für eure Klientel darum bemüht sein,</font>

  1314
  01:11:45.374 --> 01:11:47.134 
  <font color="#ffffff">günstige Strompreise zu schaffen.</font>

  1315
  01:11:47.774 --> 01:11:49.683 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe das Gefühl,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass Sie wollen,</font>

  1316
  01:11:50.324 --> 01:11:51.911 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">deindustrialisiert wird.</font>

  1317
  01:11:52.552 --> 01:11:53.957 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie in Deutschland,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">damit die Leute ärmer werden.</font>

  1318
  01:11:54.598 --> 01:11:56.403 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sodass ihr mehr Klientel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für eure Sozialpolitik habt.</font>

  1319
  01:11:57.044 --> 01:12:00.412 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch kurz ein Wort zur Nagra,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Klärung.</font>

  1320
  01:12:01.053 --> 01:12:07.453 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Nagra wird aufgeführt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als jemand,</font>

  1321
  01:12:08.094 --> 01:12:11.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">der sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen einen Ausbau stellen werde.</font>

  1322
  01:12:12.244 --> 01:12:14.123 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist natürlich nicht so.</font>

  1323
  01:12:14.764 --> 01:12:18.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie haben das nicht gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber es kam so rüber.</font>

  1324
  01:12:18.809 --> 01:12:22.021 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Nagra hat ihr Gesuch an den Bund</font>

  1325
  01:12:22.663 --> 01:12:26.310 
  <font color="#ffffff">aufgrund der bisherigen Situation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eingereicht.</font>

  1326
  01:12:26.952 --> 01:12:30.523 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese ist ein Verbot von Neubauten.</font>

  1327
  01:12:31.167 --> 01:12:33.624 
  <font color="#ffffff">Daraus kann man nicht schliessen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht möglich ist,</font>

  1328
  01:12:34.265 --> 01:12:38.864 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch ein zusätzliches KKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">entsprechend der bisherigen Ideen</font>

  1329
  01:12:39.505 --> 01:12:41.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">endzulagern.</font>

  1330
  01:12:41.704 --> 01:12:44.553 
  <font color="#ffffff">Technisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es tatsächlich möglich.</font>

  1331
  01:12:45.194 --> 01:12:46.703 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ob man es will,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist eine andere Frage.</font>

  1332
  01:12:47.344 --> 01:12:53.262 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir hatten 30-40 Jahre,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis wir einen Standort hatten.</font>

  1333
  01:12:53.903 --> 01:12:57.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich wage keine Prognose,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis wann wir einen zweiten haben.</font>

  1334
  01:12:58.003 --> 01:13:02.433 
  <font color="#ffffff">Statt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Technologien zu sprechen ...</font>

  1335
  01:13:03.074 --> 01:13:06.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird so gesprochen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als wäre es heute schon vorhanden.</font>

  1336
  01:13:07.004 --> 01:13:10.062 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist noch nicht vorhanden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist in der Entwicklung,</font>

  1337
  01:13:10.703 --> 01:13:13.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">noch in der Pilotphase,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Erprobungsphase.</font>

  1338
  01:13:14.334 --> 01:13:17.823 
  <font color="#ffffff">Statt über eine Technologie zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sprechen, die noch nicht reif ist,</font>

  1339
  01:13:18.464 --> 01:13:24.253 
  <font color="#ffffff">will ich lieber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Energiewende sprechen,</font>

  1340
  01:13:24.894 --> 01:13:26.742 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie wir sie angedacht haben.</font>

  1341
  01:13:27.384 --> 01:13:29.982 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese ist umsetzbar,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">demokratisch legitimiert,</font>

  1342
  01:13:30.624 --> 01:13:37.073 
  <font color="#ffffff">bezahlbar und technisch möglich. Das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">können wir bereits morgen umsetzen.</font>

  1343
  01:13:37.714 --> 01:13:44.042 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wovon wir hier gehört haben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Abfall weniger sein soll</font>

  1344
  01:13:44.683 --> 01:13:46.163 
  <font color="#ffffff">als</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei den erneuerbaren Energien ...</font>

  1345
  01:13:46.804 --> 01:13:55.483 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist sehr weit hergeholt.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Da fehlt mir das Verständnis.</font>

  1346
  01:13:56.124 --> 01:14:00.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  1347
  01:14:00.803 --> 01:14:02.314 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir können</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht mehr gross weiter sprechen,</font>

  1348
  01:14:02.955 --> 01:14:04.441 
  <font color="#00ffff">denn wir überziehen bereits.</font>

  1349
  01:14:05.082 --> 01:14:06.602 
  <font color="#00ffff">Am Schluss will ich noch wissen,</font>

  1350
  01:14:07.244 --> 01:14:08.682 
  <font color="#00ffff">bevor wir einen Punkt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hinter diese Sendung setzen:</font>

  1351
  01:14:09.324 --> 01:14:12.343 
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht, ob sie glauben,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es die AKW braucht,</font>

  1352
  01:14:12.984 --> 01:14:15.323 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern ob Sie glauben,</font>

  1353
  01:14:15.964 --> 01:14:19.144 
  <font color="#00ffff">ob wir irgendwann in neues AKW</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in der Schweiz haben werden.</font>

  1354
  01:14:19.785 --> 01:14:22.322 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ganz kurz, in einem Satz,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Priska Wismer:</font>

  1355
  01:14:22.963 --> 01:14:27.452 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicher nicht vor 30 Jahren.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor 30-40 Jahren.</font>

  1356
  01:14:28.098 --> 01:14:29.564 
  <font color="#00ffff">Susanne Vincenz?</font>

  1357
  01:14:30.206 --> 01:14:31.603 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich schliesse es nicht aus,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bin aber der Meinung,</font>

  1358
  01:14:32.245 --> 01:14:34.982 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir technologisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch Fortschritte machen müssen.</font>

  1359
  01:14:35.623 --> 01:14:37.179 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult?</font>

  1360
  01:14:37.820 --> 01:14:40.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe die gleiche Antwort</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie Priska Wismer.</font>

  1361
  01:14:41.173 --> 01:14:42.552 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin davon überzeugt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir bis 2060 bestimmt</font>

  1362
  01:14:43.193 --> 01:14:44.624 
  <font color="#ffffff">kein neues AKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz haben werden,</font>

  1363
  01:14:45.264 --> 01:14:46.972 
  <font color="#ffffff">unabhängig davon, wie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die politische Diskussion ausgeht.</font>

  1364
  01:14:47.614 --> 01:14:49.123 
  <font color="#00ffff">Michael Graber zum Schluss.</font>

  1365
  01:14:49.764 --> 01:14:51.403 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da müsste man zunächst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Technologieverbot aufheben.</font>

  1366
  01:14:52.044 --> 01:14:54.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann müssten wir bald anfangen.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">- Einen Satz.</font>

  1367
  01:14:54.787 --> 01:14:58.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin der Meinung, dass wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schneller neue AKW haben werden,</font>

  1368
  01:14:58.763 --> 01:15:00.672 
  <font color="#ffffff">als wir das wollen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">da wir es müssen.</font>

  1369
  01:15:01.313 --> 01:15:02.752 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz ist eine Willensnation.</font>

  1370
  01:15:03.394 --> 01:15:05.632 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie hat es immer geschafft, sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammentrafen, wenn es drauf ankam.</font>

  1371
  01:15:06.274 --> 01:15:08.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir schlittern</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in eine Energiemangellage.</font>

  1372
  01:15:09.006 --> 01:15:11.782 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir werden neue KKW</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Angriff nehmen müssen.</font>

  1373
  01:15:12.423 --> 01:15:17.143 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was er garantiert sagen können: Das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Thema wird auch intensiv diskutiert</font>

  1374
  01:15:17.784 --> 01:15:19.793 
  <font color="#00ffff">in den nächsten Jahren,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auch hier in der "Arena".</font>

  1375
  01:15:20.435 --> 01:15:22.702 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war's für heute, wir machen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einen Punkt hinter diese Sendung.</font>

  1376
  01:15:23.344 --> 01:15:26.393 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie wurde produziert</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Severin Frohofer.</font>

  1377
  01:15:27.034 --> 01:15:28.822 
  <font color="#00ffff">In einer Woche</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist Sandro Brotz wieder am Pult.</font>

  1378
  01:15:29.463 --> 01:15:32.532 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wenn Sie mehr "Arena" wollen, können</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie morgen die Zusammenfassung lesen</font>

  1379
  01:15:33.173 --> 01:15:37.292 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf srf.ch online</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder in der SRF News App.</font>

  1380
  01:15:37.933 --> 01:15:39.613 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mir bleibt nur noch etwas:</font>

  1381
  01:15:40.255 --> 01:15:42.874 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ihnen eine gute Zeit zu wünschen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und einen schönen Abend.</font>

  1382
  01:15:45.355 --> 01:15:52.780 
  <font color="#ffffff">SWISS TXT / Accessibility Services</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Livia Ciriello, Naima Feuerstein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Julia Engel, Madeleine Gassner</font>

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