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urn: urn:srf:video:8eca5e54-5e5e-46b1-a710-0b35c1acc891
title: Parteispitzen zum Ukraine-Gipfel und zur Neutralität
created_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:40
updated_at: 2024-10-11 09:12:40
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subtitles:
  WEBVTT

  1
  00:00:02.124 --> 00:00:04.708 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die ganze Welt schaut an diesem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Wochenende auf den Bürgenstock.</font>

  2
  00:00:05.349 --> 00:00:07.750 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was kann man vom Ukraine-Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">erwarten? Was nicht?</font>

  3
  00:00:08.391 --> 00:00:10.548 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darüber müssen wir</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit den Parteispitzen sprechen.</font>

  4
  00:00:20.562 --> 00:00:23.508 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit Live-Untertiteln von SWISS TXT</font>

  5
  00:00:25.431 --> 00:00:28.128 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute in der "Arena"</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zum Ukraine-Gipfel:</font>

  6
  00:00:28.770 --> 00:00:31.388 
  <font color="#ffffff">Marcel Dettling, Präsident SVP.</font>

  7
  00:00:32.029 --> 00:00:35.077 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult, Vizepräsident SP.</font>

  8
  00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.127 
  <font color="#ffffff">Thierry Burkart, Präsident FDP.</font>

  9
  00:00:38.769 --> 00:00:42.518 
  <font color="#ffffff">Marianne Binder, Mitglied</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Parteipräsidium Die Mitte.</font>

  10
  00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.247 
  <font color="#ffffff">Lisa Mazzone, Präsidentin Grüne.</font>

  11
  00:00:46.888 --> 00:00:49.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jürg Grossen, Präsident GLP.</font>

  12
  00:00:50.529 --> 00:00:53.227 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ausserdem:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schaltung an den Bürgenstock</font>

  13
  00:00:53.869 --> 00:00:57.318 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Sebastian Ramspeck,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">internationaler Korrespondent SRF.</font>

  14
  00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:03.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die "Arena" mit den Parteispitzen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">moderiert von Sandro Brotz.</font>

  15
  00:01:04.929 --> 00:01:07.808 
  <font color="#00ffff">Guten Abend und herzlich willkommen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">liebe Zuschauer/-innen.</font>

  16
  00:01:08.449 --> 00:01:10.917 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herzlich willkommen zu Hause,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">herzlich willkommen in der Runde,</font>

  17
  00:01:11.559 --> 00:01:13.277 
  <font color="#00ffff">herzlich willkommen im Publikum.</font>

  18
  00:01:13.918 --> 00:01:16.828 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sind u.a. heute Abend</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schüler/-innen aus Teufen/AR,</font>

  19
  00:01:17.469 --> 00:01:20.128 
  <font color="#00ffff">des Berufsbildungszentrums Olten</font>

  20
  00:01:20.769 --> 00:01:23.487 
  <font color="#00ffff">und von der Berufsfachschule</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Gesundheit und Soziales in Brugg.</font>

  21
  00:01:24.128 --> 00:01:26.907 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir führen diese Debatte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">auf Hochdeutsch,</font>

  22
  00:01:27.551 --> 00:01:29.627 
  <font color="#00ffff">eine Debatte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit hochkarätigen Gästen,</font>

  23
  00:01:30.269 --> 00:01:31.688 
  <font color="#00ffff">mit Gesichtern, die Sie kennen.</font>

  24
  00:01:32.330 --> 00:01:34.168 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber auch mit zwei Gesichtern</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die neuen Funktionen:</font>

  25
  00:01:34.813 --> 00:01:37.088 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling zum ersten Mal</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das Parteipräsidenten der SVP</font>

  26
  00:01:37.729 --> 00:01:41.616 
  <font color="#00ffff">in der der "Arena" - was haben Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sich als Präsident vorgenommen?</font>

  27
  00:01:42.258 --> 00:01:45.768 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eine Schippe weniger</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder lieber eine mehr?</font>

  28
  00:01:46.410 --> 00:01:48.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Parteienlandschaft schaut,</font>

  29
  00:01:49.371 --> 00:01:51.021 
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen wir noch weiter zulegen -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selbstverständlich.</font>

  30
  00:01:51.662 --> 00:01:53.378 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das habe ich mir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aufs Blatt geschrieben.</font>

  31
  00:01:54.019 --> 00:01:55.521 
  <font color="#ffffff">Natürlich auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Sektionen besuchen,</font>

  32
  00:01:56.162 --> 00:01:57.377 
  <font color="#ffffff">von der Westschweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis ins Bündnerland,</font>

  33
  00:01:58.021 --> 00:01:59.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">alles, was zur Schweiz gehört.</font>

  34
  00:02:00.448 --> 00:02:04.647 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber Sie persönlich eher Vollgas</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder eher auf der Bremse?</font>

  35
  00:02:05.289 --> 00:02:08.626 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man mich kennt, weiss man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass eine Bremse keine Option ist.</font>

  36
  00:02:09.268 --> 00:02:10.776 
  <font color="#ffffff">Immer Vollgas.</font>

  37
  00:02:11.422 --> 00:02:12.778 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">neue Präsidentin der Grünen</font>

  38
  00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:14.858 
  <font color="#00ffff">und Nachfolgerin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Balthasar Glättli.</font>

  39
  00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:17.037 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bis im letzten Herbst</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Ständerätin für den Kanton Genf.</font>

  40
  00:02:17.678 --> 00:02:19.089 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jetzt an der Spitze der Grünen.</font>

  41
  00:02:19.731 --> 00:02:21.127 
  <font color="#00ffff">Was ist bis jetzt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der grösste Unterschied?</font>

  42
  00:02:22.722 --> 00:02:27.407 
  <font color="#008000">Es gibt viele, auch weil ich neu</font>
  <font color="#008000">in dieser Funktion bin,</font>

  43
  00:02:28.049 --> 00:02:30.577 
  <font color="#008000">und so auch wieder im Parlament.</font>

  44
  00:02:31.218 --> 00:02:38.329 
  <font color="#008000">Ich verbringe viel Zeit im Zug,</font>
  <font color="#008000">weil ich so weit weg lebe.</font>

  45
  00:02:38.970 --> 00:02:40.381 
  <font color="#00ffff">Macht das Spass?</font>

  46
  00:02:41.023 --> 00:02:44.478 
  <font color="#008000">Ja, extrem viel Spass.</font>
  <font color="#008000">Es bewegt sich viel.</font>

  47
  00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:50.497 
  <font color="#008000">Manchmal hört man</font>
  <font color="#008000">etwas anderes in der Öffentlichkeit.</font>

  48
  00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:52.645 
  <font color="#008000">Aber es bewegt sich viel</font>
  <font color="#008000">für einen Wandel</font>

  49
  00:02:53.286 --> 00:02:56.999 
  <font color="#008000">bez. der grössten Herausforderungen</font>
  <font color="#008000">unserer Zeit,</font>

  50
  00:02:57.641 --> 00:02:59.127 
  <font color="#008000">wie dem Klimawandel z.B.</font>

  51
  00:02:59.768 --> 00:03:01.247 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war die Aufwärmrunde.</font>

  52
  00:03:01.889 --> 00:03:04.507 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir starten mit der Debatte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und gehen ins Thema rein.</font>

  53
  00:03:05.149 --> 00:03:07.097 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Bürgenstock</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">am Vierwaldstättersee</font>

  54
  00:03:07.738 --> 00:03:09.147 
  <font color="#00ffff">als Nabel der Welt.</font>

  55
  00:03:09.789 --> 00:03:11.597 
  <font color="#00ffff">Delegationen von 100 Ländern</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Organisationen</font>

  56
  00:03:12.238 --> 00:03:15.607 
  <font color="#00ffff">suchen nach Wegen für einen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Friedensprozess im Ukraine-Krieg.</font>

  57
  00:03:16.249 --> 00:03:19.848 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darunter befinden sich Frankreichs</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Präsident Emmanuel Macron.</font>

  58
  00:03:20.489 --> 00:03:21.977 
  <font color="#00ffff">Deutschlands Bundeskanzler</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Olaf Scholz.</font>

  59
  00:03:22.619 --> 00:03:24.867 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die amerikanische Vizepräsidentin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Kamela Harris.</font>

  60
  00:03:25.508 --> 00:03:27.877 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Präsident von Argentinien</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Javier Milei.</font>

  61
  00:03:28.518 --> 00:03:32.077 
  <font color="#00ffff">Und der ukrainische Präsident</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Wolodymyr Selenskyj.</font>

  62
  00:03:32.724 --> 00:03:35.394 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Gipfel wird explizit nicht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als Friedensgipfel bezeichnet,</font>

  63
  00:03:36.037 --> 00:03:38.515 
  <font color="#00ffff">sondern als Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zum Frieden in der Ukraine.</font>

  64
  00:03:39.160 --> 00:03:41.111 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie die Konferenz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ohne Russland ablaufen soll</font>

  65
  00:03:41.753 --> 00:03:43.173 
  <font color="#00ffff">und was die konkreten Themen sind,</font>

  66
  00:03:43.816 --> 00:03:45.187 
  <font color="#00ffff">erfahren Sie gleich hier</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu Beginn dieser Sendung</font>

  67
  00:03:45.832 --> 00:03:47.290 
  <font color="#00ffff">in unserem Erklärvideo.</font>

  68
  00:03:47.932 --> 00:03:49.587 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Bürgenstock</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">am Vierwaldstättersee:</font>

  69
  00:03:50.228 --> 00:03:52.879 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hier treffen sich an diesem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wochenende auf Einladung der Schweiz</font>

  70
  00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">100 Staaten und Organisationen</font>

  71
  00:03:55.849 --> 00:03:59.196 
  <font color="#ffffff">zur sog. hochrangigen Konferenz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zum Frieden in der Ukraine.</font>

  72
  00:04:00.918 --> 00:04:04.747 
  <font color="#ffffff">Rund die Hälfte der teilnehmenden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Staaten kommt aus Europa.</font>

  73
  00:04:05.388 --> 00:04:06.969 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch die Ukraine nimmt teil,</font>

  74
  00:04:07.610 --> 00:04:10.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland hingegen wurde</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht offiziell eingeladen.</font>

  75
  00:04:10.807 --> 00:04:13.997 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Konferenz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beginnt am Samstagnachmittag</font>

  76
  00:04:14.638 --> 00:04:16.026 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer Sitzung,</font>

  77
  00:04:16.668 --> 00:04:18.241 
  <font color="#ffffff">an der alle Staaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Organisationen zusammenkommen.</font>

  78
  00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:21.987 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bundespräsidentin Viola Amherd</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eröffnet die Konferenz.</font>

  79
  00:04:22.630 --> 00:04:27.498 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann leitet Aussenminister</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ignazio Cassis die Sitzung.</font>

  80
  00:04:30.073 --> 00:04:34.313 
  <font color="#ffffff">Am Sonntag werden in Arbeitsgruppen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">drei Themen vertieft bearbeitet.</font>

  81
  00:04:34.954 --> 00:04:38.258 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dazu zählen die nukleare Sicherheit,</font>

  82
  00:04:38.899 --> 00:04:42.277 
  <font color="#ffffff">humanitäre Aspekte -</font>

  83
  00:04:42.918 --> 00:04:46.217 
  <font color="#ffffff">also etwa die Situation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Kriegsgefangenen -</font>

  84
  00:04:46.858 --> 00:04:48.857 
  <font color="#ffffff">sowie die freie Schifffahrt.</font>

  85
  00:04:49.725 --> 00:04:52.666 
  <font color="#ffffff">Letztere hängt direkt zusammen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit der Ernährungssicherheit,</font>

  86
  00:04:53.307 --> 00:04:55.767 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil die Ukraine grosse Mengen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an Lebensmitteln exportiert.</font>

  87
  00:04:57.158 --> 00:04:59.178 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Ukraine-Gipfel hat zum Ziel,</font>

  88
  00:04:59.822 --> 00:05:01.377 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sich die teilnehmenden Staaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Organisationen</font>

  89
  00:05:02.019 --> 00:05:04.984 
  <font color="#ffffff">auf eine gemeinsame Schlusserklärung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einigen können.</font>

  90
  00:05:05.626 --> 00:05:08.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem steht im Optimalfall</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bereits am Sonntagabend fest,</font>

  91
  00:05:09.488 --> 00:05:11.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">wo eine Nachfolgekonferenz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">stattfinden kann.</font>

  92
  00:05:14.989 --> 00:05:18.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz will auf dem Bürgenstock</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Friedensprozess anstossen,</font>

  93
  00:05:19.568 --> 00:05:20.957 
  <font color="#ffffff">in den nebst der Ukraine</font>

  94
  00:05:21.599 --> 00:05:24.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">dereinst auch Russland</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eingebunden werden soll.</font>

  95
  00:05:25.008 --> 00:05:28.057 
  <font color="#00ffff">Thierry Burkhard, Präsident der FDP,</font>

  96
  00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:30.551 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ihr Aussenminister Ignazio Cassis</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hat gesagt,</font>

  97
  00:05:31.193 --> 00:05:33.097 
  <font color="#00ffff">nichts sei unsicherer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als eine Friedenskonferenz.</font>

  98
  00:05:33.738 --> 00:05:36.627 
  <font color="#00ffff">Woran werden Sie persönlich den</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Erfolg dieses Gipfels messen?</font>

  99
  00:05:37.269 --> 00:05:39.937 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kann man nicht kurzfristig tun.</font>

  100
  00:05:40.579 --> 00:05:42.996 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt wird ein Grundstein gelegt.</font>

  101
  00:05:43.638 --> 00:05:45.988 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das Haus ist noch nicht gebaut.</font>

  102
  00:05:46.630 --> 00:05:50.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird ein Prozess in Gang gesetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit dem Ziel,</font>

  103
  00:05:50.748 --> 00:05:52.537 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man einmal Frieden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schaffen kann.</font>

  104
  00:05:53.178 --> 00:05:54.937 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Ziel Frieden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sollte unser aller Ziel sein.</font>

  105
  00:05:55.586 --> 00:06:00.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin sehr glücklich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass dieser Prozess beginnen kann.</font>

  106
  00:06:01.177 --> 00:06:04.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich hoffe, dass dereinst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beide Kriegsparteien</font>

  107
  00:06:05.447 --> 00:06:06.866 
  <font color="#ffffff">am selben Tisch sitzen.</font>

  108
  00:06:07.508 --> 00:06:08.937 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie reden von einem Grundstein.</font>

  109
  00:06:09.580 --> 00:06:13.737 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist noch nicht das Fundament, auf</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dem der Frieden stattfinden kann?</font>

  110
  00:06:14.378 --> 00:06:17.257 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ehrlicherweise muss man sagen:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">So weit ist man noch nicht.</font>

  111
  00:06:17.898 --> 00:06:20.376 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man ist noch sehr weit weg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von einem möglichen Frieden.</font>

  112
  00:06:21.017 --> 00:06:22.465 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist bekannt.</font>

  113
  00:06:23.107 --> 00:06:26.537 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber man muss den Grundstein legen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das beginnt jetzt, in der Schweiz.</font>

  114
  00:06:27.178 --> 00:06:28.997 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweizer Diplomatie ist fähig,</font>

  115
  00:06:29.638 --> 00:06:32.597 
  <font color="#ffffff">solche Versammlungen zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">organisieren.</font>

  116
  00:06:33.238 --> 00:06:36.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie kann viele Regierungs-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Staatschefs</font>

  117
  00:06:37.457 --> 00:06:39.737 
  <font color="#ffffff">an einem Ort zusammenbringen.</font>

  118
  00:06:40.378 --> 00:06:44.517 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind die klassischen guten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dienste, worauf wir stolz sind.</font>

  119
  00:06:45.158 --> 00:06:47.787 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marian Binder,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Mitglied Parteipräsidium der Mitte,</font>

  120
  00:06:48.432 --> 00:06:52.452 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Hoffnung ist das eine,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Realität das andere.</font>

  121
  00:06:53.093 --> 00:06:54.596 
  <font color="#00ffff">Kann ein Ukraine-Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ohne den Aggressor Russland</font>

  122
  00:06:55.237 --> 00:06:56.746 
  <font color="#00ffff">überhaupt zu einem Erfolg werden?</font>

  123
  00:06:57.387 --> 00:07:00.096 
  <font color="#ffffff">Tatsache ist: Bevor man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Einladungen verschickte,</font>

  124
  00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:02.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat Russland öffentlich mitgeteilt,</font>

  125
  00:07:03.488 --> 00:07:06.667 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Land nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">teilnehmen möchte.</font>

  126
  00:07:07.308 --> 00:07:11.408 
  <font color="#ffffff">Angesichts dieses Angriffskrieges,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den es gestartet hat.</font>

  127
  00:07:12.051 --> 00:07:13.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war das die Überlegung.</font>

  128
  00:07:14.208 --> 00:07:20.518 
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland wurde dann auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht offiziell eingeladen.</font>

  129
  00:07:21.158 --> 00:07:24.517 
  <font color="#ffffff">Letztlich ist das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Anfang eines Prozesses,</font>

  130
  00:07:25.158 --> 00:07:29.052 
  <font color="#ffffff">der hoffentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu einem Frieden führen kann.</font>

  131
  00:07:29.694 --> 00:07:32.616 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Beste an der Sache</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist diese Plattform,</font>

  132
  00:07:33.257 --> 00:07:35.836 
  <font color="#ffffff">die der Bürgenstock jetzt bietet.</font>

  133
  00:07:36.478 --> 00:07:40.297 
  <font color="#ffffff">So weit ich mich erkundigt habe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben sich die Länder</font>

  134
  00:07:40.938 --> 00:07:47.246 
  <font color="#ffffff">bereitwillig erklärt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an dieser Konferenz teilzunehmen.</font>

  135
  00:07:47.887 --> 00:07:50.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie haben die Initiative der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr begrüsst.</font>

  136
  00:07:51.068 --> 00:07:53.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist immer so:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Miteinander das Gespräch zu suchen,</font>

  137
  00:07:54.457 --> 00:07:56.874 
  <font color="#ffffff">kann letztlich zu Stabilität führen,</font>

  138
  00:07:57.515 --> 00:08:00.757 
  <font color="#ffffff">die man für alle erhofft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in diesem schrecklichen Krieg</font>

  139
  00:08:01.398 --> 00:08:02.856 
  <font color="#ffffff">in Europa.</font>

  140
  00:08:03.500 --> 00:08:05.166 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">neuer Präsident der SVP,</font>

  141
  00:08:05.811 --> 00:08:09.967 
  <font color="#00ffff">die skeptisch ist gegenüber</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Ukraine-Konferenz.</font>

  142
  00:08:10.609 --> 00:08:13.059 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sind Friedensbemühungen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht immer zu begrüssen?</font>

  143
  00:08:14.718 --> 00:08:16.879 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht zuallererst:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin enttäuscht,</font>

  144
  00:08:17.521 --> 00:08:19.067 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass nicht beide Seiten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eingeladen wurden.</font>

  145
  00:08:19.709 --> 00:08:21.676 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für einen wirklichen Frieden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den wir unbedingt brauchen -</font>

  146
  00:08:22.317 --> 00:08:24.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">jeder Tag mit Blutvergiessen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Toten ist ein Tag zu viel -</font>

  147
  00:08:25.008 --> 00:08:27.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn es der Schweiz ernst ist,</font>

  148
  00:08:27.807 --> 00:08:29.506 
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen beide Seiten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eingeladen werden.</font>

  149
  00:08:30.148 --> 00:08:34.817 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frau Bundespräsidentin Amherd</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat das im Januar angestossen,</font>

  150
  00:08:35.457 --> 00:08:38.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">ohne das mit dem Gesamtbundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abzusprechen.</font>

  151
  00:08:38.687 --> 00:08:41.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nun hat Bundesrat Cassis</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Aussenminister</font>

  152
  00:08:41.687 --> 00:08:44.406 
  <font color="#ffffff">das übernehmen dürfen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">während des Prozesses.</font>

  153
  00:08:45.048 --> 00:08:46.568 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Woche hat er selbst gesagt,</font>

  154
  00:08:47.209 --> 00:08:50.027 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ukraine habe Russland</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht dabei haben wollen.</font>

  155
  00:08:50.669 --> 00:08:52.319 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir als neutraler Staat ...</font>

  156
  00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.617 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann sagen, Russland</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre sowieso nicht gekommen.</font>

  157
  00:08:55.258 --> 00:08:57.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber auch wenn man das weiss,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schickt man trotzdem eine Einladung,</font>

  158
  00:08:58.529 --> 00:09:00.725 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit man sieht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir neutral sind</font>

  159
  00:09:01.375 --> 00:09:02.716 
  <font color="#ffffff">und uns nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf eine Seite stellen.</font>

  160
  00:09:03.358 --> 00:09:06.136 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wollen den Frieden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Stopp des Blutvergiessens.</font>

  161
  00:09:06.777 --> 00:09:08.676 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann wäre es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein wirklicher Friedensprozess,</font>

  162
  00:09:09.318 --> 00:09:10.737 
  <font color="#ffffff">der hier angestossen werden könnte.</font>

  163
  00:09:11.378 --> 00:09:13.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ansonsten bin ich der Meinung:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ausser Spesen nichts gewesen.</font>

  164
  00:09:14.177 --> 00:09:16.596 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein sehr teurer Ausflug</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für viele Staatschefs.</font>

  165
  00:09:17.237 --> 00:09:20.068 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und was mich auch irritiert,</font>

  166
  00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:22.758 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die Aussage des</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Parlamentspräsidenten der Ukraine.</font>

  167
  00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:25.726 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich musste mir aufschreiben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was er sagte.</font>

  168
  00:09:26.368 --> 00:09:27.948 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Wir möchten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Aggressor sieht,</font>

  169
  00:09:28.590 --> 00:09:30.075 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass 100 Länder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an der Seite der Ukraine stehen</font>

  170
  00:09:30.717 --> 00:09:33.746 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Russland den Preis</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für den Krieg zahlen muss."</font>

  171
  00:09:34.387 --> 00:09:35.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die Absicht der Ukraine.</font>

  172
  00:09:36.447 --> 00:09:39.531 
  <font color="#ffffff">Null Inhalt für Frieden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Seiten der Ukraine.</font>

  173
  00:09:40.172 --> 00:09:41.597 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es müssen beide Seiten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Schritt machen,</font>

  174
  00:09:42.238 --> 00:09:44.906 
  <font color="#ffffff">sonst gibt es keinen Frieden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den wir uns alle wünschen.</font>

  175
  00:09:45.548 --> 00:09:49.836 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben den Besuch des</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ukrainischen Parlamentspräsidenten</font>

  176
  00:09:50.477 --> 00:09:51.816 
  <font color="#00ffff">Stefanchuk angesprochen.</font>

  177
  00:09:52.457 --> 00:09:54.157 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir werden auch über</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">den anderen Zwischenfall sprechen,</font>

  178
  00:09:54.804 --> 00:09:56.306 
  <font color="#00ffff">den es gegeben hat.</font>

  179
  00:09:56.947 --> 00:09:58.756 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber eines nach dem anderen.</font>

  180
  00:09:59.398 --> 00:10:01.156 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben die Begründung erwähnt,</font>

  181
  00:10:01.805 --> 00:10:03.190 
  <font color="#00ffff">warum man Russland</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht eingeladen hat.</font>

  182
  00:10:03.832 --> 00:10:06.116 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich schaue Sie an, Jon Pult,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als Vizepräsident der SP.</font>

  183
  00:10:06.758 --> 00:10:10.166 
  <font color="#00ffff">Viola Amherd hat bei SRF</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gegenüber Urs Leuthard gesagt:</font>

  184
  00:10:10.988 --> 00:10:14.036 
  <font color="#008000">Russland hat klar gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#008000">sie wollen nicht dabei sein.</font>

  185
  00:10:14.677 --> 00:10:16.976 
  <font color="#008000">Wenn man sie</font>
  <font color="#008000">trotzdem eingeladen hätte,</font>

  186
  00:10:17.618 --> 00:10:20.256 
  <font color="#008000">hätte es auf ukrainischer Seite</font>
  <font color="#008000">Irritationen gegeben.</font>

  187
  00:10:20.898 --> 00:10:23.105 
  <font color="#008000">Wir wollten die ukrainische Seite</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht verlieren.</font>

  188
  00:10:23.747 --> 00:10:26.395 
  <font color="#00ffff">Man wollte die Ukraine als</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Teilnehmerin nicht verlieren.</font>

  189
  00:10:27.037 --> 00:10:29.357 
  <font color="#00ffff">Haben sich Bundespräsidentin Amherd</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Aussenminister Cassis</font>

  190
  00:10:29.999 --> 00:10:31.596 
  <font color="#00ffff">vom ukrainischen Präsidenten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Selenskyj</font>

  191
  00:10:32.241 --> 00:10:34.086 
  <font color="#00ffff">die Bedingungen diktieren lassen ?</font>

  192
  00:10:34.727 --> 00:10:35.806 
  <font color="#00ffff">Offensichtlich.</font>

  193
  00:10:36.448 --> 00:10:38.036 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mir gefällt diese Wortwahl nicht.</font>

  194
  00:10:38.677 --> 00:10:39.617 
  <font color="#ffffff">Worum geht es?</font>

  195
  00:10:40.258 --> 00:10:43.466 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist unbestritten, dass es ein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">völkerrechtswidriger Angriffskrieg</font>

  196
  00:10:44.107 --> 00:10:45.836 
  <font color="#ffffff">von Russland ist.</font>

  197
  00:10:46.479 --> 00:10:49.347 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat die UNO-Generalversammlung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">festgestellt am 2. März 2022 -</font>

  198
  00:10:49.987 --> 00:10:51.398 
  <font color="#ffffff">also wenige Tage nach der Invasion -</font>

  199
  00:10:52.043 --> 00:10:55.347 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit 141:5 Staaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei 35 Enthaltungen.</font>

  200
  00:10:55.988 --> 00:10:59.345 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist die rechtliche</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und politische Ausgangslage.</font>

  201
  00:10:59.987 --> 00:11:02.216 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz gehört natürlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu den 141 Staaten.</font>

  202
  00:11:02.857 --> 00:11:04.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sich in dieser Situation zu bemühen,</font>

  203
  00:11:05.177 --> 00:11:07.396 
  <font color="#ffffff">einen gerechten Frieden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">herzustellen, ist etwas Wichtiges.</font>

  204
  00:11:08.037 --> 00:11:14.186 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das muss mit den Anliegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Ukraine beginnen.</font>

  205
  00:11:14.827 --> 00:11:17.386 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn das nicht klar ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das diskutiert werden muss -</font>

  206
  00:11:18.027 --> 00:11:19.896 
  <font color="#ffffff">ohne dass man alles übernimmt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was die Ukraine sagt -</font>

  207
  00:11:20.537 --> 00:11:23.316 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber es muss mit den Anliegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Ukraine beginnen.</font>

  208
  00:11:23.957 --> 00:11:26.966 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist es richtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Ukraine-Konferenz zu machen,</font>

  209
  00:11:27.607 --> 00:11:29.516 
  <font color="#ffffff">die von den Anliegen der Ukraine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ausgeht,</font>

  210
  00:11:30.158 --> 00:11:31.576 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie im Recht sind.</font>

  211
  00:11:32.225 --> 00:11:35.315 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es geht nicht darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland an den Tisch zu holen.</font>

  212
  00:11:35.957 --> 00:11:37.356 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist völlig unrealistisch.</font>

  213
  00:11:37.997 --> 00:11:39.617 
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland greift mit gleicher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aggressivität weiter an.</font>

  214
  00:11:40.258 --> 00:11:45.217 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt ist wichtig, weitere Staaten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im besten Fall die 141 Staaten,</font>

  215
  00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:48.135 
  <font color="#ffffff">die diesen Angriff im Grundsatz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verurteilt haben,</font>

  216
  00:11:48.780 --> 00:11:54.145 
  <font color="#ffffff">dazu zu bringen, in die Logik zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommen, was sie beitragen können,</font>

  217
  00:11:54.787 --> 00:11:57.185 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch in ihren Beziehungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Russland,</font>

  218
  00:11:57.827 --> 00:11:59.866 
  <font color="#ffffff">um auf einen Weg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des gerechten Friedens zu kommen.</font>

  219
  00:12:00.513 --> 00:12:01.976 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb ist diese Konferenz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gute Sache.</font>

  220
  00:12:02.617 --> 00:12:04.222 
  <font color="#ffffff">In solchen Momenten sollten wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Land</font>

  221
  00:12:04.864 --> 00:12:06.586 
  <font color="#ffffff">hinter unserer Regierung stehen.</font>

  222
  00:12:07.228 --> 00:12:09.175 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die bemüht sich darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für einen wir gerechten Frieden</font>

  223
  00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:11.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">einen ersten Grundstein zu legen.</font>

  224
  00:12:11.927 --> 00:12:13.285 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb unterstütze ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Bundesrat,</font>

  225
  00:12:13.927 --> 00:12:15.412 
  <font color="#ffffff">unabhängig davon,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob es erfolgreich wird oder nicht.</font>

  226
  00:12:16.053 --> 00:12:17.628 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Bemühung darum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist schon mal richtig.</font>

  227
  00:12:18.269 --> 00:12:19.626 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie gestatten mir trotzdem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Nachfrage:</font>

  228
  00:12:20.267 --> 00:12:21.908 
  <font color="#00ffff">Hätte man Russland</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">offiziell einladen sollen?</font>

  229
  00:12:22.550 --> 00:12:25.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn Russland vor irgendeiner</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Einladung ablehnte und sagte,</font>

  230
  00:12:26.287 --> 00:12:27.755 
  <font color="#ffffff">es sei sowieso lächerlich</font>

  231
  00:12:28.397 --> 00:12:29.837 
  <font color="#ffffff">und sich über die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">lustig gemacht hat,</font>

  232
  00:12:30.479 --> 00:12:32.268 
  <font color="#ffffff">hätte es keinen Sinn gemacht.</font>

  233
  00:12:32.910 --> 00:12:35.227 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich denke, der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat nichts falsch gemacht.</font>

  234
  00:12:35.868 --> 00:12:38.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir verlieren eine gute Chance</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu demonstrieren,</font>

  235
  00:12:39.067 --> 00:12:40.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir wirklich neutral sind.</font>

  236
  00:12:41.288 --> 00:12:41.859 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Nein.</font>

  237
  00:12:42.501 --> 00:12:43.529 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir nichts zu verlieren haben,</font>

  238
  00:12:44.171 --> 00:12:45.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann machen wir doch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Einladung.</font>

  239
  00:12:45.847 --> 00:12:46.875 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann geht das als neutraler Staat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz.</font>

  240
  00:12:47.517 --> 00:12:48.838 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt ist wirklich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein gefährlicher Punkt.</font>

  241
  00:12:49.479 --> 00:12:51.138 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wissen nicht, was</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf diesem Gipfel beschlossen wird.</font>

  242
  00:12:51.782 --> 00:12:53.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Ukraine hat gesagt,</font>

  243
  00:12:53.768 --> 00:12:56.229 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie auf dem Bürgenstock</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Waffen beschliessen wollen.</font>

  244
  00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:58.336 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und sie wollen finanzielle Mittel.</font>

  245
  00:12:58.977 --> 00:13:01.265 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn das am Ende in Papierform</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verabschiedet wird,</font>

  246
  00:13:01.907 --> 00:13:03.385 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Schweiz mitmacht</font>

  247
  00:13:04.026 --> 00:13:07.020 
  <font color="#ffffff">bei zusätzlichen Angriffen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf Russland.</font>

  248
  00:13:07.662 --> 00:13:11.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">Belgien hat auch gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie schicken Flugzeuge.</font>

  249
  00:13:11.749 --> 00:13:15.776 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frankreich einen Weg gefunden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um die alten Mirage auszumustern.</font>

  250
  00:13:16.417 --> 00:13:17.995 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das haben sie auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Aussicht gestellt.</font>

  251
  00:13:18.637 --> 00:13:21.775 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn dieser Beschluss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz gefällt wird,</font>

  252
  00:13:22.417 --> 00:13:24.545 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben wir ein Problem -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neutralitätspolitisch,</font>

  253
  00:13:25.187 --> 00:13:26.596 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für unsere innere Sicherheit.</font>

  254
  00:13:27.237 --> 00:13:28.657 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist brandgefährlich.</font>

  255
  00:13:29.298 --> 00:13:31.077 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alle wiegeln sich auf,</font>

  256
  00:13:31.718 --> 00:13:33.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">anstatt endlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Schritt zurück zu machen.</font>

  257
  00:13:34.567 --> 00:13:36.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wollen Frieden machen,</font>

  258
  00:13:36.747 --> 00:13:39.025 
  <font color="#ffffff">und das Blutvergiessen muss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unbedingt gestoppt werden.</font>

  259
  00:13:39.667 --> 00:13:43.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz hat als neutrales Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Gelegenheit geboten,</font>

  260
  00:13:44.181 --> 00:13:46.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass ein solches Treffen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">stattfinden kann.</font>

  261
  00:13:47.207 --> 00:13:50.158 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ganz offensichtlich haben viele</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Staaten diese Einladung angenommen,</font>

  262
  00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie es der Schweiz zutrauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine solche Konferenz zu führen</font>

  263
  00:13:54.807 --> 00:13:56.549 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die wesentlichen Probleme</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu besprechen.</font>

  264
  00:13:57.190 --> 00:14:00.515 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir werden das Thema Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch besprechen.</font>

  265
  00:14:01.156 --> 00:14:03.355 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">heisst natürlich nicht,</font>

  266
  00:14:03.997 --> 00:14:05.626 
  <font color="#ffffff">Recht und Unrecht gleichzusetzen.</font>

  267
  00:14:06.268 --> 00:14:10.998 
  <font color="#ffffff">In diesem Fall ist es ganz klar:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Ukraine wurde überfallen.</font>

  268
  00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.355 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es war ein brutaler</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">völkerrechtswidrige Überfall.</font>

  269
  00:14:15.997 --> 00:14:18.485 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wurden Städte zerstört,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch die Infrastruktur.</font>

  270
  00:14:19.128 --> 00:14:20.722 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Menschen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurden in die Flucht getrieben,</font>

  271
  00:14:21.364 --> 00:14:22.376 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kinder werden entführt.</font>

  272
  00:14:23.017 --> 00:14:25.078 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Aggressor</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ganz klar Russland.</font>

  273
  00:14:25.719 --> 00:14:28.665 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass in dieser Situation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Friedensverhandlung</font>

  274
  00:14:29.306 --> 00:14:31.185 
  <font color="#ffffff">stattfinden kann, kann man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sich nicht vorstellen.</font>

  275
  00:14:31.827 --> 00:14:34.415 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Wie wollen Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">denn Frieden machen?</font>

  276
  00:14:36.740 --> 00:14:39.616 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir dürfen verschiedene</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dinge nicht miteinander vermischen.</font>

  277
  00:14:40.257 --> 00:14:42.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auf dieser Konferenz werden drei</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Dinge im wesentlichen besprochen:</font>

  278
  00:14:43.457 --> 00:14:48.835 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nahrungsmittel, Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Kernanlagen und Kriegsgefangene.</font>

  279
  00:14:49.477 --> 00:14:51.815 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade die Schweiz als Depositar-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">staat der Genfer Konventionen</font>

  280
  00:14:52.456 --> 00:14:56.016 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat eine Verantwortung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hier Hand bieten zu können,</font>

  281
  00:14:56.656 --> 00:14:59.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">um diesen Prozess anzustossen.</font>

  282
  00:15:00.487 --> 00:15:02.065 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es geht nicht um Waffenlieferungen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder um finanzielle Unterstützung.</font>

  283
  00:15:02.709 --> 00:15:05.367 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Gespräche werden auch geführt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber nicht auf dem Bürgenstock.</font>

  284
  00:15:06.008 --> 00:15:07.935 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bitte darum, dass man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Dinge auseinanderhält</font>

  285
  00:15:08.577 --> 00:15:14.005 
  <font color="#ffffff">und diese Konferenz nicht schlechter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">macht als sie tatsächlich ist.</font>

  286
  00:15:14.647 --> 00:15:17.956 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Präsident der Ukraine,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wolodymyr Selenskyj, hat gesagt,</font>

  287
  00:15:18.598 --> 00:15:22.315 
  <font color="#ffffff">auf dem Bürgenstock wollen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr Waffen und mehr Geld erhalten.</font>

  288
  00:15:22.961 --> 00:15:26.595 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Aussage kommt nicht von mir,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern von ihm.</font>

  289
  00:15:27.236 --> 00:15:29.415 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das müssen wir klar abgrenzen.</font>

  290
  00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:31.505 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt wurde es gewechselt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">denn man merkte,</font>

  291
  00:15:32.147 --> 00:15:33.556 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Gegenseite nicht kommt.</font>

  292
  00:15:34.197 --> 00:15:36.746 
  <font color="#ffffff">China als wichtiger Partner</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für einen Frieden kommt auch nicht.</font>

  293
  00:15:37.387 --> 00:15:41.713 
  <font color="#ffffff">Viele Staaten werden vertreten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch Beobachter oder Botschafter,</font>

  294
  00:15:42.354 --> 00:15:44.695 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber wenige Minister-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Staatspräsidenten.</font>

  295
  00:15:45.336 --> 00:15:47.906 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alle wichtigen Leute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">fehlen auf dem Bürgenstock</font>

  296
  00:15:48.547 --> 00:15:50.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">für einen wirklichen Frieden.</font>

  297
  00:15:50.757 --> 00:15:51.667 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich möchte die Runde öffnen</font>

  298
  00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:54.456 
  <font color="#00ffff">und den Präsidenten der GLP und die</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Präsidentin der Grünen dazunehmen.</font>

  299
  00:15:55.097 --> 00:15:59.726 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jürg Grossen, GLP-Präsident,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn man sich im besten Fall</font>

  300
  00:16:00.370 --> 00:16:04.375 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf dem Bürgenstock untereinander</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einig ist, aber die Gegenseite,</font>

  301
  00:16:05.017 --> 00:16:06.936 
  <font color="#00ffff">der Aggressor Russland,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nicht dabei ist -</font>

  302
  00:16:07.578 --> 00:16:09.145 
  <font color="#00ffff">kann man es immer noch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als einen Erfolg werten?</font>

  303
  00:16:09.787 --> 00:16:11.066 
  <font color="#ffff00">Zuerst einmal möchte ich sagen:</font>

  304
  00:16:11.707 --> 00:16:15.926 
  <font color="#ffff00">man muss dankbar sein, dass die</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Schweiz eine aktive Rolle übernimmt.</font>

  305
  00:16:16.567 --> 00:16:18.922 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Schweiz war am Anfang,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">insbesondere der Bundesrat,</font>

  306
  00:16:19.564 --> 00:16:22.685 
  <font color="#ffff00">überfordert als der Krieg</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">begonnen hat.</font>

  307
  00:16:23.327 --> 00:16:25.018 
  <font color="#ffff00">Man hatte Mühe mit den Sanktionen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zögerte lange,</font>

  308
  00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:28.235 
  <font color="#ffff00">wusste nicht so recht,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wie man sich einordnen sollte,</font>

  309
  00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:31.585 
  <font color="#ffff00">es gab eine Neutralitätsdiskussion.</font>

  310
  00:16:32.226 --> 00:16:33.875 
  <font color="#ffff00">Man wusste nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wie man sich verhalten sollte.</font>

  311
  00:16:34.516 --> 00:16:36.222 
  <font color="#ffff00">Jetzt ist man wenigstens</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in einem Modus,</font>

  312
  00:16:36.864 --> 00:16:38.085 
  <font color="#ffff00">wo man eine aktive Rolle</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">übernehmen will.</font>

  313
  00:16:38.726 --> 00:16:39.905 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist grundsätzlich positiv.</font>

  314
  00:16:40.546 --> 00:16:44.445 
  <font color="#ffff00">Am Anfang klang es gut:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">"Friedenskonferenz".</font>

  315
  00:16:45.087 --> 00:16:47.065 
  <font color="#ffff00">Jetzt hat man den Titel</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">etwas umgeändert,</font>

  316
  00:16:47.707 --> 00:16:52.135 
  <font color="#ffff00">als man gesehen hat, dass es</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">eine einseitige Geschichte ist.</font>

  317
  00:16:52.776 --> 00:16:55.635 
  <font color="#ffff00">Russland hat abgesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bevor es eingeladen wurde.</font>

  318
  00:16:56.276 --> 00:16:59.555 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich finde, man hätte die Einladung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">trotzdem schicken sollen,</font>

  319
  00:17:00.196 --> 00:17:01.886 
  <font color="#ffff00">denn man hätte nichts verloren.</font>

  320
  00:17:02.528 --> 00:17:03.863 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es hätte einfach gezeigt,</font>

  321
  00:17:04.505 --> 00:17:06.845 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass es uns ernst ist</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">mit der Friedenskonferenz.</font>

  322
  00:17:07.486 --> 00:17:09.595 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es wäre falsch,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn man sich von der Ukraine</font>

  323
  00:17:10.236 --> 00:17:12.435 
  <font color="#ffff00">die Bedingungen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">diktieren lassen würde.</font>

  324
  00:17:13.078 --> 00:17:14.395 
  <font color="#ffff00">Auf der anderen Seite</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">muss man sagen:</font>

  325
  00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.954 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist immerhin beeindruckend,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dass 100 Delegationen kommen,</font>

  326
  00:17:18.597 --> 00:17:21.224 
  <font color="#ffff00">es sind 57 Staatschefs,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das ist beeindruckend.</font>

  327
  00:17:21.867 --> 00:17:25.905 
  <font color="#ffff00">Viele Länder, auch namhafte,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die wirklich helfen wollen,</font>

  328
  00:17:26.546 --> 00:17:29.585 
  <font color="#ffff00">um eine Grundlage bei den Themen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu legen,</font>

  329
  00:17:30.226 --> 00:17:33.145 
  <font color="#ffff00">die Thierry Burkart genannt hat:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nukleare Sicherheit,</font>

  330
  00:17:33.786 --> 00:17:36.495 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ernährungssicherheit,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Gefangenenaustausch usw.</font>

  331
  00:17:37.136 --> 00:17:39.484 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und das Wichtigste zum Schluss:</font>

  332
  00:17:40.126 --> 00:17:43.185 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es muss gelingen, dass eine</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Nachfolgekonferenz etabliert wird.</font>

  333
  00:17:43.827 --> 00:17:46.785 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn man das schafft,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist es ein Erfolg für die Schweiz.</font>

  334
  00:17:47.426 --> 00:17:51.495 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber wenn es so ist, Lisa Mazzone,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dass am Schluss Selenskyj</font>

  335
  00:17:52.136 --> 00:17:55.499 
  <font color="#00ffff">dafür weibelt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mehr Waffen und Gelder zu bekommen</font>

  336
  00:17:56.147 --> 00:18:00.117 
  <font color="#00ffff">und es gar nicht mehr um diese</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">drei eigentlichen Bereiche geht?</font>

  337
  00:18:00.758 --> 00:18:04.165 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist klar: Das Ziel ist es,</font>
  <font color="#008000">über diese Themen zu diskutieren.</font>

  338
  00:18:04.806 --> 00:18:07.226 
  <font color="#008000">Und es sind überhaupt keine</font>
  <font color="#008000">trivialen Themen.</font>

  339
  00:18:07.867 --> 00:18:09.955 
  <font color="#008000">Die Ernährungssicherheit,</font>
  <font color="#008000">und wie man es schafft,</font>

  340
  00:18:10.596 --> 00:18:12.355 
  <font color="#008000">dass die Getreide</font>
  <font color="#008000">zu den Leuten kommen,</font>

  341
  00:18:12.996 --> 00:18:15.696 
  <font color="#008000">damit es keine Ernährungskrise</font>
  <font color="#008000">gibt, ist extrem wichtig.</font>

  342
  00:18:16.338 --> 00:18:21.305 
  <font color="#008000">Man verliert evtl. etwas</font>
  <font color="#008000">den Blick für das grosse Ganze.</font>

  343
  00:18:21.946 --> 00:18:23.805 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist schon ein Erfolg,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass es all diese Länder gibt,</font>

  344
  00:18:24.446 --> 00:18:26.235 
  <font color="#008000">auch aus dem globalen Süden.</font>

  345
  00:18:26.877 --> 00:18:29.875 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist ein Zeichen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass es eine Grundlage gibt,</font>

  346
  00:18:30.517 --> 00:18:32.805 
  <font color="#008000">um eine gute Diskussion zu führen.</font>

  347
  00:18:33.446 --> 00:18:36.194 
  <font color="#008000">Es gibt keine</font>
  <font color="#008000">Verhandlungsdiskussionen,</font>

  348
  00:18:36.836 --> 00:18:38.675 
  <font color="#008000">wenn die Grundlage nicht da ist.</font>

  349
  00:18:39.321 --> 00:18:40.965 
  <font color="#008000">Man muss beginnen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">über den Frieden zu sprechen.</font>

  350
  00:18:41.606 --> 00:18:44.983 
  <font color="#008000">Dort ist die Schweiz in ihrer Rolle.</font>

  351
  00:18:45.623 --> 00:18:48.635 
  <font color="#008000">Ich freue mich sehr, dass sie</font>
  <font color="#008000">diese Rolle endlich aktiv übernimmt.</font>

  352
  00:18:49.277 --> 00:18:52.324 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie freuen sich sehr, Jürg Grossen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">findet die Liste beeindruckend.</font>

  353
  00:18:52.967 --> 00:18:55.544 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber Lisa Mazzone,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vor Kurzem bei den Bundesratswahlen</font>

  354
  00:18:56.186 --> 00:19:00.427 
  <font color="#00ffff">wollten Sie Aussenminister Ignazio</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Cassis in die Wüste schicken.</font>

  355
  00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:03.945 
  <font color="#008000">Ich habe nicht gesagt, dass es</font>
  <font color="#008000">reicht, aber dieser Schritt</font>

  356
  00:19:04.586 --> 00:19:08.164 
  <font color="#008000">ist extrem wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#008000">auch für die Grundlage.</font>

  357
  00:19:08.807 --> 00:19:10.694 
  <font color="#008000">Wie schafft man es,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wieder über den Frieden zu sprechen?</font>

  358
  00:19:11.336 --> 00:19:18.055 
  <font color="#008000">Wie schafft man es, gefährliche</font>
  <font color="#008000">Unfälle z.B. im Nuklearbereich,</font>

  359
  00:19:18.696 --> 00:19:20.935 
  <font color="#008000">beim Getreide usw. zu verhindern?</font>

  360
  00:19:21.576 --> 00:19:23.155 
  <font color="#008000">Aber es ist klar,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass es nicht reicht.</font>

  361
  00:19:23.796 --> 00:19:25.936 
  <font color="#008000">Die Schweiz hat sich zu lange</font>
  <font color="#008000">geweigert,</font>

  362
  00:19:26.577 --> 00:19:28.756 
  <font color="#008000">aktiv die Sanktionen umzusetzen.</font>

  363
  00:19:29.398 --> 00:19:32.365 
  <font color="#008000">Wir sind immer noch nicht Teil</font>
  <font color="#008000">der internationalen Task Force.</font>

  364
  00:19:33.008 --> 00:19:41.615 
  <font color="#008000">Wir sprechen über Gefangene</font>
  <font color="#008000">und wie man dort Wege finden kann.</font>

  365
  00:19:42.256 --> 00:19:45.434 
  <font color="#008000">Aber eigentlich gibt es</font>
  <font color="#008000">eine Koalition für die Kinder,</font>

  366
  00:19:46.075 --> 00:19:48.055 
  <font color="#008000">die von Russland aus der Ukraine</font>
  <font color="#008000">entführt wurden.</font>

  367
  00:19:48.696 --> 00:19:51.296 
  <font color="#008000">Dort wollen wir</font>
  <font color="#008000">auch nicht dabei sein.</font>

  368
  00:19:51.937 --> 00:19:56.116 
  <font color="#008000">Es gibt immer noch viel zu tun</font>
  <font color="#008000">und wir müssen diese Schritte gehen,</font>

  369
  00:19:56.758 --> 00:19:58.605 
  <font color="#008000">auch im Sinne der humanitären Hilfe.</font>

  370
  00:19:59.246 --> 00:20:04.267 
  <font color="#008000">Und das nicht auf Kosten</font>
  <font color="#008000">unserer anderen Zusammenarbeit,</font>

  371
  00:20:04.909 --> 00:20:07.979 
  <font color="#008000">denn sonst schaden wir</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Stabilität weltweit.</font>

  372
  00:20:08.620 --> 00:20:10.892 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir schalten in ein paar Min.</font>

  373
  00:20:11.533 --> 00:20:14.705 
  <font color="#00ffff">zu unserem Korrespondenten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sebastian Raumspeck am Bürgenstock.</font>

  374
  00:20:15.354 --> 00:20:18.804 
  <font color="#00ffff">Zuerst möchte ich aber gemeinsam</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">eine Szene debattieren,</font>

  375
  00:20:19.446 --> 00:20:21.754 
  <font color="#00ffff">die diese Woche für enorme</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schlagzeilen gesorgt hat.</font>

  376
  00:20:22.395 --> 00:20:23.594 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war am letzten Mittwoch</font>

  377
  00:20:24.236 --> 00:20:26.055 
  <font color="#00ffff">beim Besuch des ukrainischen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Parlamentspräsidenten Stefantschuk</font>

  378
  00:20:26.696 --> 00:20:28.555 
  <font color="#00ffff">im Bundeshaus,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">da kam es zu einem Handgemenge.</font>

  379
  00:20:29.201 --> 00:20:30.765 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir schauen es uns an.</font>

  380
  00:20:32.227 --> 00:20:34.634 
  <font color="#00ffff">In selben Moment, als es zu einem</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Fototermin mit Stefantschuk kam,</font>

  381
  00:20:35.275 --> 00:20:40.699 
  <font color="#00ffff">wurden die Nationalräte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Thomas Aeschi und Michael Graber</font>

  382
  00:20:41.335 --> 00:20:43.542 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf der Treppe gestoppt.</font>

  383
  00:20:44.184 --> 00:20:51.355 
  <font color="#00ffff">Handgemenge, ein Gerangel, SVP-</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Präsident Dettling: War das nötig?</font>

  384
  00:20:51.998 --> 00:20:54.104 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, das Sicherheitskonzept</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war völlig übertrieben,</font>

  385
  00:20:54.746 --> 00:20:56.164 
  <font color="#ffffff">da haben sie recht.</font>

  386
  00:20:56.805 --> 00:20:58.784 
  <font color="#ffffff">Leute von der Polizei mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dem Maschinengewehr im Bundeshaus -</font>

  387
  00:20:59.428 --> 00:21:01.705 
  <font color="#ffffff">ins Bundeshaus kommt nur,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wer eine Zutrittsberechtigung hat.</font>

  388
  00:21:02.346 --> 00:21:04.905 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Besucher müssen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch eine Kontrolle,</font>

  389
  00:21:05.545 --> 00:21:07.037 
  <font color="#ffffff">die schärfer ist als am Flughafen.</font>

  390
  00:21:07.678 --> 00:21:11.174 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Bundeshaus halten sich Leute auf,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von denen keine Gefahr ausgeht.</font>

  391
  00:21:11.815 --> 00:21:14.495 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Polizei ist auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu unserem Schutz dort,</font>

  392
  00:21:15.137 --> 00:21:16.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">sie beschützen die National-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Ständeräte,</font>

  393
  00:21:17.206 --> 00:21:21.305 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind immerhin 246 Parlamentarier</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und die Bundesräte in diesem Haus.</font>

  394
  00:21:21.946 --> 00:21:24.525 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es war ein völlig überzogenes</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicherheitskonzept.</font>

  395
  00:21:25.166 --> 00:21:27.095 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und was ich v.a. kritisiere:</font>

  396
  00:21:27.736 --> 00:21:33.204 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wurde null informiert, dass hier</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">morgens Behinderungen stattfinden.</font>

  397
  00:21:33.846 --> 00:21:38.344 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gab keine Informationen, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das überhaupt stattgefunden hat.</font>

  398
  00:21:38.986 --> 00:21:41.835 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das war leider der Auslöser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser tragischen Szene.</font>

  399
  00:21:42.477 --> 00:21:45.144 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben meine Frage, ob das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nötig war, etwas uminterpretiert.</font>

  400
  00:21:45.786 --> 00:21:49.536 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich habe nicht das</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sicherheitsdispositiv kritisiert.</font>

  401
  00:21:50.181 --> 00:21:54.494 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Frage war mehr, ob es nötig war</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Ihren Fraktionskollegen,</font>

  402
  00:21:55.137 --> 00:21:57.034 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass sie unbedingt diese Treppe</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nehmen mussten,</font>

  403
  00:21:57.676 --> 00:21:59.362 
  <font color="#00ffff">sie hätten ja eine andere</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder den Aufzug nehmen können.</font>

  404
  00:22:00.004 --> 00:22:02.244 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja, wenn man informiert gewesen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre, wäre das kein Problem gewesen.</font>

  405
  00:22:02.885 --> 00:22:04.334 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann hätte man sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darauf einstellen können.</font>

  406
  00:22:04.977 --> 00:22:07.081 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das war übrigens nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die einzige Szene an diesem Tag.</font>

  407
  00:22:07.722 --> 00:22:10.184 
  <font color="#ffffff">Am Nachmittag wurde der Ausgang</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">während 30 Min. gesperrt,</font>

  408
  00:22:10.826 --> 00:22:14.596 
  <font color="#ffffff">man kam weder rein noch raus,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch da gab es null Informationen.</font>

  409
  00:22:15.237 --> 00:22:17.174 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Parlamentsgebäude,</font>

  410
  00:22:17.816 --> 00:22:19.724 
  <font color="#ffffff">in dem wir als gewählte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Volksvertreter debattieren.</font>

  411
  00:22:20.366 --> 00:22:24.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dann so eine Störung wegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Präsidenten der Ukraine ...</font>

  412
  00:22:24.934 --> 00:22:27.795 
  <font color="#ffffff">Anscheinend war das eine grosse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gefahr, und da frage ich mich,</font>

  413
  00:22:28.436 --> 00:22:31.045 
  <font color="#ffffff">warum man eine so grosse Gefahr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ins Bundeshaus bringt,</font>

  414
  00:22:31.687 --> 00:22:34.764 
  <font color="#ffffff">in dem die ganze politische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Verantwortung der Schweiz liegt.</font>

  415
  00:22:35.406 --> 00:22:39.215 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit diesem Vorgehen des National-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ratspräsidenten Eric Nussbaumer</font>

  416
  00:22:39.856 --> 00:22:41.214 
  <font color="#ffffff">habe ich grosse Mühe.</font>

  417
  00:22:41.858 --> 00:22:43.874 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Treppe war nur gesperrt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">damit er ein Foto machen konnte.</font>

  418
  00:22:44.516 --> 00:22:49.229 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Grundidee war,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Besucher/-innen</font>

  419
  00:22:49.869 --> 00:22:52.034 
  <font color="#ffffff">weiterhin im Gebäude sein konnten.</font>

  420
  00:22:52.676 --> 00:22:55.094 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann hat man kurzzeitig die Treppe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abgesperrt.</font>

  421
  00:22:55.735 --> 00:22:59.634 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es war eine ganz kurze Zeit, damit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieses Foto gemacht werden konnte.</font>

  422
  00:23:00.276 --> 00:23:03.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich im Bundeshaus</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">völlig uninformiert herumlaufe,</font>

  423
  00:23:04.287 --> 00:23:07.683 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dann kommt eine Absperrung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder ein Polizist, der mir sagt,</font>

  424
  00:23:08.325 --> 00:23:12.093 
  <font color="#ffffff">ich soll da nicht durch - da brauche</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich vorher nicht 17 Informationen.</font>

  425
  00:23:12.738 --> 00:23:14.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mir reicht es,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn ein Polizist sagt,</font>

  426
  00:23:15.325 --> 00:23:17.174 
  <font color="#ffffff">ich soll eine andere Treppe nehmen.</font>

  427
  00:23:17.815 --> 00:23:22.645 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und wenn man sich extra durchzwängt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und solche Bilder provoziert,</font>

  428
  00:23:23.287 --> 00:23:26.414 
  <font color="#ffffff">die im russischen Fernsehen kommen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dann erachte ich das</font>

  429
  00:23:27.056 --> 00:23:30.744 
  <font color="#ffffff">den Persönlichkeiten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieser Ordnungshüter gegenüber</font>

  430
  00:23:31.385 --> 00:23:33.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">als ziemlich respektlos.</font>

  431
  00:23:33.788 --> 00:23:35.236 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist auch schwierig für sie,</font>

  432
  00:23:35.877 --> 00:23:37.625 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn sie gestandene Nationalräte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">packen müssen,</font>

  433
  00:23:38.267 --> 00:23:42.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit sie nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Treppe raufgehen.</font>

  434
  00:23:43.458 --> 00:23:46.833 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde, Ihre Kollegen hätten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das sehr einfach lösen können:</font>

  435
  00:23:47.475 --> 00:23:49.384 
  <font color="#ffffff">einfach einen anderen Weg gehen.</font>

  436
  00:23:50.025 --> 00:23:52.294 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Unterschied zu Ihnen schaue ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kein russisches Fernsehen.</font>

  437
  00:23:52.937 --> 00:23:57.914 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, es sind ja provozierte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und unnötige Bilder.</font>

  438
  00:23:58.555 --> 00:24:00.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">Marcel Dettling, einfach,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">damit das klar ist:</font>

  439
  00:24:01.286 --> 00:24:02.434 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben eine Hausordnung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Bundeshaus,</font>

  440
  00:24:03.076 --> 00:24:05.804 
  <font color="#ffffff">dort gibt es die Ziffer 5.2,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die besagt:</font>

  441
  00:24:06.445 --> 00:24:10.924 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Den Anordnungen des Sicherheits-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">personals ist Folge zu leisten."</font>

  442
  00:24:11.566 --> 00:24:16.144 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das gilt für Parlamentsmitglieder,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für Bundesräte, für alle.</font>

  443
  00:24:16.782 --> 00:24:19.056 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das lernen schon Kinder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Kindergarten.</font>

  444
  00:24:19.698 --> 00:24:24.948 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn dann sogar der Fraktionschef</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihrer Partei sich renitent verhält,</font>

  445
  00:24:25.585 --> 00:24:30.564 
  <font color="#ffffff">gibt es unschöne Bilder.</font>

  446
  00:24:31.205 --> 00:24:35.014 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese unschönen Bilder werden als</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Instrument der russischen Propaganda</font>

  447
  00:24:35.656 --> 00:24:37.775 
  <font color="#ffffff">benutzt, um zu sagen, wie im Westen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Demokratie kaputt sei.</font>

  448
  00:24:38.418 --> 00:24:43.064 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Verantwortung, die diese</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zwei Nationalräte der SVP tragen,</font>

  449
  00:24:43.705 --> 00:24:46.644 
  <font color="#ffffff">der Imageschaden für unser Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist enorm.</font>

  450
  00:24:47.285 --> 00:24:50.585 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und ein wenig Demut der SVP</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nach diesem groben Schnitzer,</font>

  451
  00:24:51.232 --> 00:24:54.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">sich nicht an die Hausordnung zu</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">halten, die für alle Menschen gilt,</font>

  452
  00:24:54.765 --> 00:24:58.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">da würde ich Demut sowie eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Entschuldigung der SVP erwarten.</font>

  453
  00:24:58.766 --> 00:25:01.494 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Burkhart) In einem Punkt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gebe ich Kollege Dettling Recht:</font>

  454
  00:25:02.135 --> 00:25:05.434 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Information war in der Tat nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">so gut, wir wurden nicht informiert.</font>

  455
  00:25:06.076 --> 00:25:08.924 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber diese Treppe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurde für einige Min. gesperrt.</font>

  456
  00:25:09.565 --> 00:25:12.304 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und hätte die andere Treppe</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">oder den Lift nehmen können.</font>

  457
  00:25:12.946 --> 00:25:16.513 
  <font color="#ffffff">Insofern werde ich den Verdacht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch nicht ganz los,</font>

  458
  00:25:17.155 --> 00:25:22.444 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man es als Anlass genommen hat,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um solche Bilder zu provozieren.</font>

  459
  00:25:23.086 --> 00:25:27.136 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich glaube - und da hänge ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas ein bei Kollege Pult -,</font>

  460
  00:25:27.776 --> 00:25:30.630 
  <font color="#ffffff">was über uns steht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Parlamentarier/-innen</font>

  461
  00:25:31.273 --> 00:25:35.344 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind die Institutionen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Würde des Bundeshauses.</font>

  462
  00:25:35.985 --> 00:25:41.364 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich stelle das auch immer mal wieder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Nationalrat fest, sorry,</font>

  463
  00:25:42.007 --> 00:25:45.584 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass dieses Haus als Klamaukbühne</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">missbraucht wird.</font>

  464
  00:25:46.225 --> 00:25:48.434 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damit schadet man der Würde</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Hauses, den Institutionen</font>

  465
  00:25:49.076 --> 00:25:53.049 
  <font color="#ffffff">und damit auch der Glaubwürdigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der einzelnen Parlamentarier/-innen.</font>

  466
  00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:56.194 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind eigentlich selber schuld,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn die Leute sich manchmal fragen,</font>

  467
  00:25:56.835 --> 00:25:59.271 
  <font color="#ffffff">was die da eigentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Bern machen.</font>

  468
  00:25:59.912 --> 00:26:01.354 
  <font color="#00ffff">Klamaukbühne von dieser Seite,</font>

  469
  00:26:01.995 --> 00:26:03.664 
  <font color="#00ffff">von dieser Seite wird</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">eine Entschuldigung gefordert.</font>

  470
  00:26:04.306 --> 00:26:06.533 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult möchte ablenken</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vom Versagen</font>

  471
  00:26:07.175 --> 00:26:09.424 
  <font color="#ffffff">seines Nationalratspräsidenten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass nicht informiert wurde.</font>

  472
  00:26:10.066 --> 00:26:11.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Es ist auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dein Nationalratspräsident.</font>

  473
  00:26:11.893 --> 00:26:13.634 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir werden jeweils</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">am Morgen informiert,</font>

  474
  00:26:14.275 --> 00:26:16.364 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben einen solchen Stapel Papier</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vor uns, was aktuell ist,</font>

  475
  00:26:17.005 --> 00:26:19.974 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob die Steckdose hinten links</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">funktioniert,</font>

  476
  00:26:20.617 --> 00:26:24.083 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber bei einem so wichtigen Ereignis</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">fand man es nicht nötig,</font>

  477
  00:26:24.725 --> 00:26:27.863 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu informieren.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein Versäumnis.</font>

  478
  00:26:28.505 --> 00:26:30.553 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte die Szene</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">überhaupt nicht herunterspielen,</font>

  479
  00:26:31.195 --> 00:26:34.474 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber Sicherheitsleute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einem Maschinengewehr</font>

  480
  00:26:35.115 --> 00:26:39.664 
  <font color="#ffffff">und der Hand am Anschlag und auf der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anderen Seite der Fraktionschef</font>

  481
  00:26:40.305 --> 00:26:42.545 
  <font color="#ffffff">der grössten Partei des Landes ...</font>

  482
  00:26:43.187 --> 00:26:45.044 
  <font color="#ffffff">- Der sich nicht an Anweisungen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hält.</font>

  483
  00:26:45.693 --> 00:26:47.165 
  <font color="#ffffff">... das kritisiere ich.</font>

  484
  00:26:47.807 --> 00:26:50.974 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass Dispositiv, das aufgezogen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurde, ist unverhältnismässig.</font>

  485
  00:26:51.615 --> 00:26:53.174 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marianne Binder sagt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">man sei informiert gewesen.</font>

  486
  00:26:53.815 --> 00:26:56.314 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jürg Grossen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie haben Sie es erlebt?</font>

  487
  00:26:56.955 --> 00:26:59.403 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ca. 5 Min. vorher</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">musste ich aus dem Haus,</font>

  488
  00:27:00.044 --> 00:27:02.654 
  <font color="#ffff00">da ich einen Termin</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bei Karin Keller-Sutter hatte.</font>

  489
  00:27:03.295 --> 00:27:05.044 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich musste in den Bernerhof.</font>

  490
  00:27:05.685 --> 00:27:07.946 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich habe auch nichts gewusst,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ich war nicht informiert.</font>

  491
  00:27:08.586 --> 00:27:11.154 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber mir wurde gesagt, dass ich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">im Moment hier nicht raus könne.</font>

  492
  00:27:11.796 --> 00:27:14.524 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich solle einen anderen Ausgang</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">oder eine andere Treppe nehmen.</font>

  493
  00:27:15.165 --> 00:27:16.605 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das habe ich gemacht,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">es war überhaupt kein Problem.</font>

  494
  00:27:17.248 --> 00:27:20.411 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich sehe wirklich nicht ein,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">weshalb man sich ...</font>

  495
  00:27:21.053 --> 00:27:22.573 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Sicherheit geht vor.</font>

  496
  00:27:23.215 --> 00:27:25.694 
  <font color="#ffff00">Seit dem Attentat von Zug</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">sind die Sicherheitsbestimmungen</font>

  497
  00:27:26.335 --> 00:27:28.058 
  <font color="#ffff00">im Bundeshaus</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">etwas schärfer geworden.</font>

  498
  00:27:28.704 --> 00:27:34.633 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich bin froh, dass diese Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">so ernst genommen wird,</font>

  499
  00:27:35.274 --> 00:27:36.823 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass wir Sicherheitspersonal haben</font>

  500
  00:27:37.465 --> 00:27:40.142 
  <font color="#ffff00">und dass es in solchen Momenten</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">aufgestockt wird.</font>

  501
  00:27:40.784 --> 00:27:45.274 
  <font color="#ffff00">Über das Ausmass</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">habe ich mich ehrlich gesagt</font>

  502
  00:27:45.915 --> 00:27:47.294 
  <font color="#ffff00">auch ein bisschen erschrocken.</font>

  503
  00:27:47.935 --> 00:27:49.374 
  <font color="#ffff00">Trotzdem gilt es,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das zu respektieren.</font>

  504
  00:27:50.015 --> 00:27:51.483 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich verstehe überhaupt nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wie genau diejenigen,</font>

  505
  00:27:52.124 --> 00:27:54.313 
  <font color="#ffff00">die immer nach mehr Sicherheit und</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Grenzkontrollen für alle schreien,</font>

  506
  00:27:54.954 --> 00:27:57.837 
  <font color="#ffff00">wenn sie mal kontrolliert werden</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">oder einen anderen Weg gehen müssen,</font>

  507
  00:27:58.476 --> 00:28:00.524 
  <font color="#ffff00">das nicht einhalten.</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Dafür habe ich null Verständnis.</font>

  508
  00:28:01.167 --> 00:28:03.354 
  <font color="#00ffff">Polizeiminister Beat Jans</font>

  509
  00:28:03.996 --> 00:28:06.984 
  <font color="#00ffff">hat sich auch öffentlich hinter</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das Sicherheitsdispositiv gestellt.</font>

  510
  00:28:07.628 --> 00:28:09.513 
  <font color="#00ffff">Im Gegensatz zu Ihrem Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Albert Rösti,</font>

  511
  00:28:10.154 --> 00:28:13.213 
  <font color="#00ffff">der am selben Abend</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">im "Rundschau talk" das gesagt hat:</font>

  512
  00:28:14.946 --> 00:28:18.493 
  <font color="#008000">Dass ein gewählter Parlamentarier,</font>
  <font color="#008000">der allen bekannt ist,</font>

  513
  00:28:19.135 --> 00:28:21.574 
  <font color="#008000">die Treppe nicht hochlaufen und</font>
  <font color="#008000">seiner Arbeit nachgehen kann,</font>

  514
  00:28:22.215 --> 00:28:23.905 
  <font color="#008000">das geht nicht.</font>

  515
  00:28:24.546 --> 00:28:26.973 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone, wo stehen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bei dieser Debatte?</font>

  516
  00:28:27.614 --> 00:28:29.133 
  <font color="#008000">Ich stehe bei der Ukraine.</font>

  517
  00:28:29.775 --> 00:28:31.816 
  <font color="#008000">Es gibt eine Konferenz,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die morgen eröffnet wird.</font>

  518
  00:28:32.869 --> 00:28:36.382 
  <font color="#008000">Es geht um Leiden von Menschen</font>
  <font color="#008000">in der Ukraine und darum,</font>

  519
  00:28:37.024 --> 00:28:38.533 
  <font color="#008000">einen Weg für den Frieden zu finden.</font>

  520
  00:28:39.176 --> 00:28:44.753 
  <font color="#008000">Solange über so einen Vorfall</font>
  <font color="#008000">im Bundeshaus zu sprechen,</font>

  521
  00:28:45.394 --> 00:28:50.943 
  <font color="#008000">weil es Leute gibt, die sich nicht</font>
  <font color="#008000">an die Regeln halten können,</font>

  522
  00:28:51.584 --> 00:28:53.003 
  <font color="#008000">ist völlig deplatziert.</font>

  523
  00:28:53.645 --> 00:28:55.933 
  <font color="#008000">Wir müssen einen Schritt zurückgehen</font>
  <font color="#008000">und dürfen uns nicht ablenken lassen</font>

  524
  00:28:56.575 --> 00:29:00.204 
  <font color="#008000">von der echten Debatte, denn diese</font>
  <font color="#008000">Diskussion ist wirklich wichtig.</font>

  525
  00:29:00.845 --> 00:29:02.313 
  <font color="#008000">Und das gilt auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">für einen Bundesrat.</font>

  526
  00:29:02.954 --> 00:29:05.346 
  <font color="#008000">Ich verstehe nicht, weshalb das ein</font>
  <font color="#008000">Bundesrat noch kommentieren muss.</font>

  527
  00:29:05.987 --> 00:29:07.563 
  <font color="#00ffff">Abschliessende Frage,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling:</font>

  528
  00:29:08.204 --> 00:29:11.604 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der Verdacht war da, dass diese</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Bilder provoziert worden seien.</font>

  529
  00:29:12.246 --> 00:29:15.580 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann nur provozieren, wenn</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">man weiss, dass das stattfindet.</font>

  530
  00:29:16.221 --> 00:29:18.354 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man nicht informiert ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kann man auch nicht provozieren.</font>

  531
  00:29:18.995 --> 00:29:21.623 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist einfach erklärt.</font>

  532
  00:29:22.265 --> 00:29:26.113 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber auch wenn ich es nicht weiss,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn mir ein Polizist sagt,</font>

  533
  00:29:26.755 --> 00:29:29.093 
  <font color="#ffffff">ich dürfe da nicht durch, renne ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dem doch nicht in den Bauch rein.</font>

  534
  00:29:29.735 --> 00:29:34.926 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und ich wurde insofern informiert,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als ich eine Besuchergruppe hatte.</font>

  535
  00:29:35.567 --> 00:29:37.153 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich musste die Namen und alles</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">angeben.</font>

  536
  00:29:37.794 --> 00:29:40.063 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Sicherheitsdienst</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat schon informiert.</font>

  537
  00:29:40.704 --> 00:29:42.023 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich wusste, dass Besuch da war.</font>

  538
  00:29:42.665 --> 00:29:44.385 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich hatte keine Gruppe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mich musste man nicht informieren.</font>

  539
  00:29:45.027 --> 00:29:47.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass Besuch im Bundeshaus war,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wussten wir doch.</font>

  540
  00:29:48.591 --> 00:29:50.694 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr viele Leute im Bundeshaus,</font>

  541
  00:29:51.335 --> 00:29:52.704 
  <font color="#ffffff">ab und zu kann man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an gewissen Orten nicht durch,</font>

  542
  00:29:53.345 --> 00:29:54.763 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil ein Apero des Kantons XY</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">stattfindet.</font>

  543
  00:29:55.405 --> 00:29:56.853 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann geht man auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einfach durch.</font>

  544
  00:29:57.494 --> 00:29:59.503 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch eine letzte Bemerkung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn ich es mir erlauben kann.</font>

  545
  00:30:00.144 --> 00:30:01.503 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie erlauben es sich gerade.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Danke.</font>

  546
  00:30:02.144 --> 00:30:06.613 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass sich Bundesräte - hüben wie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">drüben - zu diesem Thema äussern,</font>

  547
  00:30:07.255 --> 00:30:10.683 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Sache des Parlaments ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat mich etwas befremdet.</font>

  548
  00:30:11.326 --> 00:30:14.913 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das nützt der Institution Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht wahnsinnig viel.</font>

  549
  00:30:15.554 --> 00:30:17.533 
  <font color="#00ffff">Zurück zum eigentlichen Thema</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Sendung -</font>

  550
  00:30:18.174 --> 00:30:19.743 
  <font color="#00ffff">das sind wir auch den Menschen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in der Ukraine schuldig,</font>

  551
  00:30:20.384 --> 00:30:21.843 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass wir den Fokus</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder darauf legen.</font>

  552
  00:30:22.485 --> 00:30:25.104 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Meinungen zu diesem Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sind geteilt,</font>

  553
  00:30:25.751 --> 00:30:27.423 
  <font color="#00ffff">auch bei unseren Zuschauer/-innen.</font>

  554
  00:30:28.065 --> 00:30:30.353 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben aufgerufen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und es kann z.B. dieses E-Mail:</font>

  555
  00:30:37.099 --> 00:30:41.043 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ganz anders dieses Mail:</font>

  556
  00:30:46.565 --> 00:30:49.436 
  <font color="#00ffff">Unser Mann vor Ort</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ist Sebastian Ramspeck,</font>

  557
  00:30:50.077 --> 00:30:51.523 
  <font color="#00ffff">internationaler Korrespondent</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von SRF.</font>

  558
  00:30:52.164 --> 00:30:54.633 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir schalten nun zu ihm</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">an den Bürgenstock.</font>

  559
  00:30:55.276 --> 00:30:58.933 
  <font color="#00ffff">Guten Abend, Sebastian Ramspeck.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie können mich hören und sehen?</font>

  560
  00:30:59.574 --> 00:31:00.223 
  <font color="#ffff00">Guten Abend.</font>

  561
  00:31:00.865 --> 00:31:02.513 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Meinungen der Parteispitzen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu diesem Gipfel</font>

  562
  00:31:03.155 --> 00:31:05.813 
  <font color="#00ffff">reichen von einem wichtigen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Engagement der Schweiz</font>

  563
  00:31:06.454 --> 00:31:07.903 
  <font color="#00ffff">bis zu einem Flop,</font>

  564
  00:31:08.544 --> 00:31:10.024 
  <font color="#00ffff">wie es jetzt schon von der SVP</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">prognostiziert wird.</font>

  565
  00:31:10.665 --> 00:31:12.043 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Gretchenfrage an Sie:</font>

  566
  00:31:12.684 --> 00:31:14.583 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wird dieser Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">unter- oder überschätzt?</font>

  567
  00:31:15.225 --> 00:31:17.633 
  <font color="#ffff00">Um mal ganz diplomatisch anzufangen:</font>

  568
  00:31:18.275 --> 00:31:19.754 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das hängt natürlich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">von der Perspektive</font>

  569
  00:31:20.395 --> 00:31:21.833 
  <font color="#ffff00">und von den Erwartungen ab.</font>

  570
  00:31:22.474 --> 00:31:24.353 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich würde sagen, es gibt selten</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ein Gipfeltreffen,</font>

  571
  00:31:24.996 --> 00:31:26.783 
  <font color="#ffff00">bei dem</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">so schwierig vorauszusehen ist,</font>

  572
  00:31:27.425 --> 00:31:29.563 
  <font color="#ffff00">welche Folgen es langfristig</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">haben wird -</font>

  573
  00:31:30.204 --> 00:31:32.823 
  <font color="#ffff00">im Guten oder vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">auch eher im Irrelevanten.</font>

  574
  00:31:33.464 --> 00:31:35.463 
  <font color="#ffff00">Sicher ist:</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Schweiz hat es geschafft -</font>

  575
  00:31:36.107 --> 00:31:37.578 
  <font color="#ffff00">und daran haben viele gezweifelt -</font>

  576
  00:31:38.219 --> 00:31:40.683 
  <font color="#ffff00">einen bemerkenswerten Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">auf die Beine zu stellen.</font>

  577
  00:31:41.324 --> 00:31:42.783 
  <font color="#ffff00">57 Staats- und Regierungschefs.</font>

  578
  00:31:43.424 --> 00:31:46.183 
  <font color="#ffff00">Fast die Hälfte der Staaten sind</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">vertreten auf dem Bürgenstock.</font>

  579
  00:31:46.824 --> 00:31:49.183 
  <font color="#ffff00">Viel Berichterstattung schon</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">im Voraus auf der ganzen Welt.</font>

  580
  00:31:49.824 --> 00:31:51.303 
  <font color="#ffff00">Madonna hat dafür geweibelt.</font>

  581
  00:31:51.945 --> 00:31:53.417 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das kann man als Erfolg bezeichnen.</font>

  582
  00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:57.189 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber klar ist auch: Ein ganz</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zentrales Ziel hat man verfehlt.</font>

  583
  00:31:57.824 --> 00:31:59.632 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es war immer die Absicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">des Bundesrats,</font>

  584
  00:32:00.274 --> 00:32:03.993 
  <font color="#ffff00">China und andere verbündete Staaten</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Russlands, befreundete Staaten,</font>

  585
  00:32:04.634 --> 00:32:06.473 
  <font color="#ffff00">an den Tisch zu bekommen.</font>

  586
  00:32:07.115 --> 00:32:10.003 
  <font color="#ffff00">Um zumindest indirekt</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">einen gewissen Einfluss oder Druck</font>

  587
  00:32:10.645 --> 00:32:12.103 
  <font color="#ffff00">auf Russland auszuüben.</font>

  588
  00:32:12.745 --> 00:32:14.412 
  <font color="#ffff00">Diese Hoffnung - man kann sie</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">als naiv bezeichnen -</font>

  589
  00:32:15.054 --> 00:32:16.453 
  <font color="#ffff00">ist nicht in Erfüllung gegangen.</font>

  590
  00:32:17.094 --> 00:32:18.542 
  <font color="#ffff00">China ist nicht hier,</font>

  591
  00:32:19.184 --> 00:32:21.123 
  <font color="#ffff00">auch Narendra Modi, der indische</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Ministerpräsident, auch nicht.</font>

  592
  00:32:21.766 --> 00:32:23.183 
  <font color="#ffff00">Brasilien ist auch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">hochrangig vertreten.</font>

  593
  00:32:23.824 --> 00:32:25.293 
  <font color="#ffff00">So wird es auch nicht möglich sein,</font>

  594
  00:32:25.934 --> 00:32:27.354 
  <font color="#ffff00">eine Schlusserklärung</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu verabschieden,</font>

  595
  00:32:27.994 --> 00:32:29.423 
  <font color="#ffff00">von der man sagen kann,</font>

  596
  00:32:30.065 --> 00:32:32.062 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass alle wesentlichen Staaten</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ausser Russland diese mittragen.</font>

  597
  00:32:32.704 --> 00:32:35.042 
  <font color="#ffff00">Am Ende geht es wirklich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zentral um die Frage,</font>

  598
  00:32:35.684 --> 00:32:37.214 
  <font color="#ffff00">ob es eine Nachfolgekonferenz gibt,</font>

  599
  00:32:37.856 --> 00:32:39.473 
  <font color="#ffff00">ob wirklich an Friedensprozess</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">angestossen wird,</font>

  600
  00:32:40.114 --> 00:32:43.646 
  <font color="#ffff00">wie das von Bundespräsidentin Amherd</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in Aussicht gestellt wurde.</font>

  601
  00:32:44.287 --> 00:32:46.273 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das scheint mir am Ende</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die entscheidende Frage</font>

  602
  00:32:46.916 --> 00:32:48.992 
  <font color="#ffff00">in den nächsten 48 Std. zu sein.</font>

  603
  00:32:49.765 --> 00:32:51.812 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie gross schätzen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die Chancen ein,</font>

  604
  00:32:52.454 --> 00:32:53.875 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass es zu einer solchen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Nachfolgekonferenz,</font>

  605
  00:32:54.516 --> 00:32:55.943 
  <font color="#00ffff">vielleicht auch mit Russland, kommt?</font>

  606
  00:32:56.585 --> 00:33:01.923 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Schweiz wird sicher alles tun</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und hat alles dafür getan,</font>

  607
  00:33:02.566 --> 00:33:05.193 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass eine solche zustande kommt.</font>

  608
  00:33:05.835 --> 00:33:08.852 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und dass es auch eine</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">entsprechende Ankündigung gibt.</font>

  609
  00:33:09.494 --> 00:33:12.492 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gab viele Berichte, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Saudi-Arabien das Land sein könnte,</font>

  610
  00:33:13.134 --> 00:33:15.383 
  <font color="#ffff00">das eine solche Konferenz</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ausrichtet.</font>

  611
  00:33:16.024 --> 00:33:17.682 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das wäre</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ein interessanter Vorschlag,</font>

  612
  00:33:18.326 --> 00:33:22.267 
  <font color="#ffff00">weil Saudi-Arabien gute Beziehungen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zur Ukraine pflegt,</font>

  613
  00:33:22.910 --> 00:33:24.272 
  <font color="#ffff00">aber auch zu Russland.</font>

  614
  00:33:24.914 --> 00:33:28.062 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gab Spekulationen, dass Mohammed</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bin Salman, der saudische Kronprinz,</font>

  615
  00:33:28.704 --> 00:33:30.283 
  <font color="#ffff00">tatsächlich anreisen wird.</font>

  616
  00:33:30.924 --> 00:33:32.283 
  <font color="#ffff00">Gemäss der offiziellen Gästeliste</font>

  617
  00:33:32.924 --> 00:33:34.383 
  <font color="#ffff00">schickt er</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nur seinen Aussenminister.</font>

  618
  00:33:35.024 --> 00:33:36.503 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das mindert vielleicht die Chance,</font>

  619
  00:33:37.143 --> 00:33:39.953 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass Saudi-Arabien vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">eine solche Ankündigung macht.</font>

  620
  00:33:40.594 --> 00:33:42.292 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber ganz ausschliessen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">würde ich es nicht.</font>

  621
  00:33:42.936 --> 00:33:44.354 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich bin jedenfalls gespannt,</font>

  622
  00:33:44.996 --> 00:33:46.482 
  <font color="#ffff00">wie wahrscheinlich alle,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die diesen Gipfel verfolgen.</font>

  623
  00:33:47.124 --> 00:33:49.043 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Einschätzung noch zu</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Nicht-Einladung von Russland</font>

  624
  00:33:49.684 --> 00:33:50.765 
  <font color="#00ffff">durch die Schweiz.</font>

  625
  00:33:51.406 --> 00:33:53.193 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da möchte ich das Logo</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Konferenz kurz zeigen.</font>

  626
  00:33:53.834 --> 00:33:55.883 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Überlagerung der beiden Kreise,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die man oben sieht,</font>

  627
  00:33:56.524 --> 00:33:58.822 
  <font color="#00ffff">symbolisieren das Finden</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Schnittpunkten</font>

  628
  00:33:59.464 --> 00:34:01.310 
  <font color="#00ffff">und Überschneidungen für</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">einen möglichen Friedensprozess.</font>

  629
  00:34:01.952 --> 00:34:04.342 
  <font color="#00ffff">So hat es uns das EDA erklärt.</font>

  630
  00:34:04.983 --> 00:34:07.803 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie soll man aber Schnittpunkte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Überschneidungen</font>

  631
  00:34:08.446 --> 00:34:12.545 
  <font color="#00ffff">für einen Friedensprozess finden,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wenn der Aggressor nicht dabei ist?</font>

  632
  00:34:13.186 --> 00:34:16.580 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist schwierig.</font>

  633
  00:34:17.221 --> 00:34:18.782 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist ohne Frage der Fall.</font>

  634
  00:34:19.424 --> 00:34:22.702 
  <font color="#ffff00">Man muss ganz klar sagen: Es wird</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">keinen Friedensvertrag geben.</font>

  635
  00:34:23.344 --> 00:34:24.775 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es wird auch</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">keinen Waffenstillstand geben.</font>

  636
  00:34:25.417 --> 00:34:27.493 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und ehrlicherweise</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">muss man auch sagen:</font>

  637
  00:34:28.134 --> 00:34:30.913 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es wird schwierig sein, in den</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">drei Themen der Tagesordnung</font>

  638
  00:34:31.554 --> 00:34:34.391 
  <font color="#ffff00">überhaupt handfeste Fortschritte</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu erreichen.</font>

  639
  00:34:35.033 --> 00:34:37.342 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es soll z.B. über Gefangenen-</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">austausch gesprochen werden.</font>

  640
  00:34:37.987 --> 00:34:40.489 
  <font color="#ffff00">Aber die Ukraine kann ja Gefangene</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht mit sich selbst austauschen.</font>

  641
  00:34:41.132 --> 00:34:42.493 
  <font color="#ffff00">Da ist schon die Frage,</font>

  642
  00:34:43.134 --> 00:34:44.734 
  <font color="#ffff00">ob man nicht zumindest pro forma</font>

  643
  00:34:45.376 --> 00:34:47.213 
  <font color="#ffff00">eine Einladung an Russland</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">hätte verschicken sollen.</font>

  644
  00:34:47.853 --> 00:34:49.284 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ist das der richtige Weg?</font>

  645
  00:34:49.926 --> 00:34:51.543 
  <font color="#ffff00">Hat man damit vielleicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht die Möglichkeit verbaut,</font>

  646
  00:34:52.185 --> 00:34:54.717 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass Staaten wie z.B. China</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">teilnehmen?</font>

  647
  00:34:55.359 --> 00:34:57.072 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist alles eine offene Frage.</font>

  648
  00:34:57.713 --> 00:34:59.412 
  <font color="#ffff00">Was ich ganz wichtig finde:</font>

  649
  00:35:00.054 --> 00:35:07.244 
  <font color="#ffff00">Russland hat illegal Gebiete der</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Ukraine erobert und annektiert.</font>

  650
  00:35:07.886 --> 00:35:09.703 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wladimir Putin</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">schliesst komplett aus,</font>

  651
  00:35:10.344 --> 00:35:12.705 
  <font color="#ffff00">diese Gebiete zurückzugeben.</font>

  652
  00:35:13.347 --> 00:35:16.597 
  <font color="#ffff00">In allen Andeutungen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">einem Frieden zuzustimmen,</font>

  653
  00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.522 
  <font color="#ffff00">fehlt immer die Möglichkeit, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">diese Gebiete zurückgegeben werden.</font>

  654
  00:35:21.164 --> 00:35:22.617 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das wird er nicht tun.</font>

  655
  00:35:23.259 --> 00:35:24.673 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Ukraine auf der anderen Seite:</font>

  656
  00:35:25.314 --> 00:35:26.745 
  <font color="#ffff00">Nicht nur der Präsident</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Wolodymyr Selenskyj,</font>

  657
  00:35:27.386 --> 00:35:30.452 
  <font color="#ffff00">sondern auch die Mehrheit</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der Bevölkerung ist nicht bereit,</font>

  658
  00:35:31.094 --> 00:35:35.682 
  <font color="#ffff00">die eroberten Gebiete</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">an Russland abzutreten</font>

  659
  00:35:36.324 --> 00:35:38.803 
  <font color="#ffff00">und diesen Krieg Russlands</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zu belohnen.</font>

  660
  00:35:39.446 --> 00:35:41.233 
  <font color="#ffff00">Deshalb muss man ganz klar sagen:</font>

  661
  00:35:41.874 --> 00:35:44.652 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gibt momentan leider</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">keine Friedensperspektive.</font>

  662
  00:35:45.293 --> 00:35:48.674 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gibt leider keine Zone,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wo sich beide treffen könnten.</font>

  663
  00:35:49.315 --> 00:35:52.172 
  <font color="#ffff00">Putin schliesst einen Frieden</font>

  664
  00:35:52.814 --> 00:35:54.992 
  <font color="#ffff00">mit der territorialen Integrität</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der Ukraine aus.</font>

  665
  00:35:55.634 --> 00:35:57.302 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und selbst wenn man ihn</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">eingeladen hätte</font>

  666
  00:35:57.944 --> 00:35:59.068 
  <font color="#ffff00">und er morgen auf dem Bürgenstock</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">erscheinen würde,</font>

  667
  00:35:59.709 --> 00:36:01.143 
  <font color="#ffff00">Frieden würde es nicht geben.</font>

  668
  00:36:01.784 --> 00:36:03.362 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sebastian Ramspeck, vielen Dank</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für diese Einschätzungen</font>

  669
  00:36:04.003 --> 00:36:08.282 
  <font color="#00ffff">vor diesem grossen Wochenende</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und diesem Gipfel</font>

  670
  00:36:08.924 --> 00:36:10.623 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf dem Bürgenstock,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wo höchste Sicherheitsstufe gilt.</font>

  671
  00:36:11.268 --> 00:36:13.282 
  <font color="#00ffff">Mein Kollege wird uns in den</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nächsten Tagen auf allen Kanälen</font>

  672
  00:36:13.924 --> 00:36:16.864 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf dem Laufenden halten,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wie sich der Gipfel entwickelt.</font>

  673
  00:36:17.506 --> 00:36:21.472 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bleiben wir bei dem,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">was auch Russland im Vorfeld sagte.</font>

  674
  00:36:22.113 --> 00:36:24.702 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aussenminister Lawrow sagte:</font>

  675
  00:36:26.225 --> 00:36:28.284 
  <font color="#008000">Die Schweiz passt uns einfach nicht.</font>

  676
  00:36:28.925 --> 00:36:31.012 
  <font color="#008000">Sie ist</font>
  <font color="#008000">überhaupt kein neutrales Land.</font>

  677
  00:36:31.654 --> 00:36:35.103 
  <font color="#008000">Sie hat sich von einem neutralen</font>
  <font color="#008000">zu einem offen feindseligen Land</font>

  678
  00:36:35.744 --> 00:36:37.182 
  <font color="#008000">gewandelt.</font>

  679
  00:36:38.035 --> 00:36:40.866 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult, für Russland ist die</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweiz ein offen feindseliges Land.</font>

  680
  00:36:41.503 --> 00:36:44.883 
  <font color="#ffffff">An dem Tag, an dem wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unser Selbstverständnis</font>

  681
  00:36:45.524 --> 00:36:47.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">und unsere Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Russland definieren lassen,</font>

  682
  00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:50.405 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die demokratische Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vorbei.</font>

  683
  00:36:51.046 --> 00:36:54.553 
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland ist ein brutales, verbre-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">cherisches, diktatorisches Regime</font>

  684
  00:36:55.194 --> 00:36:57.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einem absolut</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kaltblütigen Diktator,</font>

  685
  00:36:57.964 --> 00:36:59.744 
  <font color="#ffffff">der sich an keine Regeln hält,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die es überhaupt gibt.</font>

  686
  00:37:00.386 --> 00:37:01.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">Kinder verschleppen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Menschen töten usw.</font>

  687
  00:37:02.285 --> 00:37:04.267 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir lassen uns sicherlich nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sagen,</font>

  688
  00:37:04.910 --> 00:37:06.792 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob wir neutral sind oder nicht.</font>

  689
  00:37:07.434 --> 00:37:08.823 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz ist neutral.</font>

  690
  00:37:09.464 --> 00:37:10.245 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Neutralitätsrecht sieht vor,</font>

  691
  00:37:10.886 --> 00:37:13.232 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sich ein neutraler Staat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an keinen Kampfhandlungen</font>

  692
  00:37:13.873 --> 00:37:15.022 
  <font color="#ffffff">in keinem Krieg beteiligt.</font>

  693
  00:37:15.665 --> 00:37:17.122 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das machen wir nicht.</font>

  694
  00:37:17.763 --> 00:37:19.852 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sieht auch vor, dass man sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keinem Militärbündnis anschliesst.</font>

  695
  00:37:20.493 --> 00:37:21.913 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sind wir nicht.</font>

  696
  00:37:22.554 --> 00:37:23.911 
  <font color="#ffffff">Also sind wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neutralitätsrechtlich neutral.</font>

  697
  00:37:24.552 --> 00:37:25.989 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unsere Neutralitätspolitik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bestimmen wir selber.</font>

  698
  00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:28.252 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese geht vom Grundsatz aus,</font>

  699
  00:37:28.895 --> 00:37:30.542 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Völkerrecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über allem steht.</font>

  700
  00:37:31.185 --> 00:37:32.402 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind Mitglied</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Vereinten Nationen,</font>

  701
  00:37:33.043 --> 00:37:34.333 
  <font color="#ffffff">wir halten die UNO-Charta hoch.</font>

  702
  00:37:34.974 --> 00:37:37.173 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Angriffskrieg,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Invasion ist illegal.</font>

  703
  00:37:37.815 --> 00:37:40.222 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und sich dagegen zu verteidigen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist legal.</font>

  704
  00:37:40.864 --> 00:37:42.312 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb stehen wir politisch</font>

  705
  00:37:42.957 --> 00:37:44.382 
  <font color="#ffffff">selbstverständlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf der Seite der Ukraine.</font>

  706
  00:37:45.024 --> 00:37:46.292 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auf welcher Seite sonst?</font>

  707
  00:37:46.933 --> 00:37:49.435 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir können doch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf der Seite des Verbrechers stehen</font>

  708
  00:37:50.076 --> 00:37:51.282 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat nichts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Neutralität zu tun,</font>

  709
  00:37:51.923 --> 00:37:54.682 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern damit, dass man das</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Völkerrecht, die Menschenrechte</font>

  710
  00:37:55.324 --> 00:37:58.972 
  <font color="#ffffff">und auch minimale</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerechtigkeitsstandards einhält.</font>

  711
  00:37:59.612 --> 00:38:03.501 
  <font color="#00ffff">Auf welcher Seite stehen Sie,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling?</font>

  712
  00:38:04.143 --> 00:38:06.742 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es gibt doch den einen anderen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Putin-Versteher in Ihrer Partei.</font>

  713
  00:38:07.384 --> 00:38:09.142 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein sehr gefährliches</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wording, das Kollege Pult wählte.</font>

  714
  00:38:09.783 --> 00:38:11.522 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er hat in seinem Votum null Inhalt</font>

  715
  00:38:12.163 --> 00:38:15.732 
  <font color="#ffffff">für Frieden in diesem Konflikt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geworben.</font>

  716
  00:38:16.374 --> 00:38:17.215 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Doch, doch.</font>

  717
  00:38:17.856 --> 00:38:19.632 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Aggressor kann sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zurückziehen, dann ist Frieden.</font>

  718
  00:38:20.274 --> 00:38:23.052 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Hier drinnen ist klar,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wer schuld ist.</font>

  719
  00:38:23.693 --> 00:38:24.493 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das müssen wir nicht diskutieren.</font>

  720
  00:38:25.134 --> 00:38:29.142 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen jetzt endlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dieses Blutvergiessen stoppen,</font>

  721
  00:38:29.783 --> 00:38:31.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Tötung von Soldaten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf beiden Seiten,</font>

  722
  00:38:32.413 --> 00:38:33.942 
  <font color="#ffffff">von Zivilisten in der Ukraine.</font>

  723
  00:38:34.583 --> 00:38:35.702 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das muss sofort gestoppt werden.</font>

  724
  00:38:36.345 --> 00:38:38.361 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie wir als neutraler Staat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wahrgenommen werden,</font>

  725
  00:38:39.003 --> 00:38:40.382 
  <font color="#ffffff">das hängt nicht von Jon Pult ab,</font>

  726
  00:38:41.023 --> 00:38:42.945 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern von der Wahrnehmung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Länder.</font>

  727
  00:38:43.586 --> 00:38:45.303 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn uns Russland</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mehr wahrnimmt,</font>

  728
  00:38:45.945 --> 00:38:47.942 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir bei den EU-Sanktionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mitmachten,</font>

  729
  00:38:48.584 --> 00:38:51.334 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann zeigt es, in welche Richtung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es mit unserer Neutralität geht.</font>

  730
  00:38:51.974 --> 00:38:53.742 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb haben wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Initiative gestartet,</font>

  731
  00:38:54.384 --> 00:38:55.961 
  <font color="#ffffff">um dies ein für alle Mal zu klären.</font>

  732
  00:38:56.605 --> 00:38:59.381 
  <font color="#ffffff">Heute konnten wir lesen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Bundespräsidentin Amherd</font>

  733
  00:39:00.023 --> 00:39:02.363 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der "Frankfurter Allgemeinen"</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sogar darüber nachdenkt,</font>

  734
  00:39:03.003 --> 00:39:07.532 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schweizer Panzer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ins Konfliktgebiet zu liefern.</font>

  735
  00:39:08.173 --> 00:39:09.803 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da hört der Spass definitiv auf.</font>

  736
  00:39:10.443 --> 00:39:12.072 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone.</font>

  737
  00:39:12.714 --> 00:39:15.890 
  <font color="#008000">Das interessante ist:</font>
  <font color="#008000">China kommt nicht,</font>

  738
  00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:20.588 
  <font color="#008000">aber hat das Ganze</font>
  <font color="#008000">eigentlich begrüsst.</font>

  739
  00:39:21.230 --> 00:39:23.082 
  <font color="#008000">Sie haben die Neutralität der</font>
  <font color="#008000">Schweiz nicht infrage gestellt.</font>

  740
  00:39:23.724 --> 00:39:29.032 
  <font color="#008000">Dass der Aggressor</font>
  <font color="#008000">das infrage stellt, ist logisch.</font>

  741
  00:39:29.674 --> 00:39:35.312 
  <font color="#008000">Der Aggressor ist in dieser Position</font>
  <font color="#008000">ziemlich alleine.</font>

  742
  00:39:35.953 --> 00:39:39.584 
  <font color="#008000">Damals beim Golfkrieg war Saddam</font>
  <font color="#008000">Hussein auch nicht zufrieden,</font>

  743
  00:39:40.225 --> 00:39:43.362 
  <font color="#008000">dass die Schweiz Sanktionen ergriff</font>

  744
  00:39:44.003 --> 00:39:45.552 
  <font color="#008000">aufgrund einer Verletzung</font>
  <font color="#008000">des Völkerrechts.</font>

  745
  00:39:46.193 --> 00:39:47.513 
  <font color="#008000">Aber wir haben es trotzdem gemacht,</font>

  746
  00:39:48.155 --> 00:39:50.821 
  <font color="#008000">weil wir immer auf der Seite</font>
  <font color="#008000">des Völkerrechts sind.</font>

  747
  00:39:51.463 --> 00:39:53.961 
  <font color="#008000">Wir brauchen das auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">für unsere Neutralität.</font>

  748
  00:39:54.605 --> 00:39:58.232 
  <font color="#008000">Unsere militärische Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#008000">funktioniert nur,</font>

  749
  00:39:58.874 --> 00:40:00.783 
  <font color="#008000">wenn man sich an Regeln hält.</font>

  750
  00:40:01.426 --> 00:40:03.552 
  <font color="#008000">Momentan ist das in diesem Gebiet</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht der Fall.</font>

  751
  00:40:04.197 --> 00:40:06.999 
  <font color="#008000">Das muss sich ändern.</font>

  752
  00:40:07.640 --> 00:40:09.392 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marianne Binder, ich muss kurz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">etwas mit Ihnen klären.</font>

  753
  00:40:10.033 --> 00:40:13.191 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das hat im Parlament und darüber</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">hinaus für Gesprächsstoff gesorgt.</font>

  754
  00:40:13.832 --> 00:40:18.722 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es war eine Aussage Ihres Ständerats</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Parteikollegen Peter Hegglin -</font>

  755
  00:40:19.364 --> 00:40:21.132 
  <font color="#00ffff">von wegen Aggressor</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und wer schuld ist.</font>

  756
  00:40:21.773 --> 00:40:23.151 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie atmen schon tief durch.</font>

  757
  00:40:24.488 --> 00:40:27.624 
  <font color="#ffff00">Auch die Ukraine</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und die sie unterstützende NATO</font>

  758
  00:40:28.266 --> 00:40:29.792 
  <font color="#ffff00">trägt eine Mitschuld</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">an diesem Konflikt.</font>

  759
  00:40:30.544 --> 00:40:35.122 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Ukraine trägt eine Mitschuld</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">an diesem Konflikt. Ernsthaft?</font>

  760
  00:40:35.763 --> 00:40:41.395 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe das vollumfänglich negiert.</font>

  761
  00:40:42.037 --> 00:40:43.471 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin zu 100 % anderer Meinung.</font>

  762
  00:40:44.118 --> 00:40:45.573 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Aggressor</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist ganz klar Russland.</font>

  763
  00:40:46.215 --> 00:40:48.872 
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland hat die Ukraine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf brutale Weise überfallen.</font>

  764
  00:40:49.513 --> 00:40:50.864 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich hatte die Gelegenheit,</font>

  765
  00:40:51.506 --> 00:40:53.872 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit dem damaligen Bundespräsidenten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ignazio Cassis</font>

  766
  00:40:54.512 --> 00:40:58.111 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ukraine zu besuchen.</font>

  767
  00:40:58.752 --> 00:41:01.912 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn Sie sehen, was in diesem Gürtel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Kiew angerichtet wurde,</font>

  768
  00:41:02.554 --> 00:41:07.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann kann man nur noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Kopf schütteln,</font>

  769
  00:41:08.413 --> 00:41:12.642 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man darüber spricht, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Ukraine auch eine Schuld trägt.</font>

  770
  00:41:13.283 --> 00:41:14.664 
  <font color="#ffffff">Überhaupt dieses Narrativ.</font>

  771
  00:41:15.306 --> 00:41:17.544 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir ein bisschen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Geschichte zurückgehen:</font>

  772
  00:41:18.185 --> 00:41:21.031 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir wollen jetzt Frieden und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">beide haben eine gewisse Schuld -</font>

  773
  00:41:21.672 --> 00:41:23.151 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit beruhigt man sich.</font>

  774
  00:41:23.793 --> 00:41:26.612 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir wissen, wenn wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die letzten 100 Jahre</font>

  775
  00:41:27.253 --> 00:41:28.783 
  <font color="#ffffff">von Europas Geschichte anschauen,</font>

  776
  00:41:29.426 --> 00:41:32.112 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie diese Appeasement-Politik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">letztlich herauskam.</font>

  777
  00:41:32.755 --> 00:41:38.331 
  <font color="#ffffff">Putin hat ganz klar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diesen Krieg gestartet.</font>

  778
  00:41:38.978 --> 00:41:41.471 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er hat die Krim schon annektiert,</font>

  779
  00:41:42.113 --> 00:41:43.576 
  <font color="#ffffff">Tschetschenien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war schon ein Problem.</font>

  780
  00:41:44.218 --> 00:41:45.294 
  <font color="#ffffff">Immer ein Stückchen mehr.</font>

  781
  00:41:45.933 --> 00:41:49.992 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals hat die deutsche Wehrmacht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sich ebenso verhalten</font>

  782
  00:41:50.633 --> 00:41:52.151 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Vorfeld des Zweiten Weltkriegs.</font>

  783
  00:41:52.792 --> 00:41:55.323 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat gesagt:</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihr bekommt das Sudetenland</font>

  784
  00:41:55.965 --> 00:41:58.921 
  <font color="#ffffff">und sonst noch ein paar Gebiete.</font>

  785
  00:41:59.562 --> 00:42:01.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und am Ende war der Krieg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">trotzdem da.</font>

  786
  00:42:01.893 --> 00:42:05.622 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und hat 80 Mio. Tote weltweit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gefordert.</font>

  787
  00:42:06.264 --> 00:42:08.551 
  <font color="#ffffff">Putin versteht eine Sprache,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nämlich, wenn man sagt:</font>

  788
  00:42:09.192 --> 00:42:10.741 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis hierhin und nicht weiter.</font>

  789
  00:42:11.390 --> 00:42:12.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man in Polen ist und sieht,</font>

  790
  00:42:13.612 --> 00:42:16.161 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie von links bis rechts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">alle sagen:</font>

  791
  00:42:16.803 --> 00:42:18.871 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Keinen Millimeter</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kommen die über unsere Grenzen."</font>

  792
  00:42:19.513 --> 00:42:23.062 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann liegt das auch daran,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man den russischen Diktator</font>

  793
  00:42:23.703 --> 00:42:26.946 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht wieder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im eigenen Land haben will.</font>

  794
  00:42:27.590 --> 00:42:29.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dafür habe ich riesiges Verständnis.</font>

  795
  00:42:30.092 --> 00:42:31.713 
  <font color="#ffffff">Du möchtest ihn</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch nicht in unserem Land.</font>

  796
  00:42:32.354 --> 00:42:34.614 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ist die Aussage von Peter Hegglin</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">letztlich auch der Beweis dafür,</font>

  797
  00:42:35.256 --> 00:42:41.202 
  <font color="#00ffff">dass vielleicht auch er auf</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">diese russische Propaganda reinfiel?</font>

  798
  00:42:41.843 --> 00:42:44.741 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich kann nicht in den Kopf</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Kollege Hegglin schauen.</font>

  799
  00:42:45.385 --> 00:42:46.811 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich teile seine Auffassung nicht.</font>

  800
  00:42:47.453 --> 00:42:49.998 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für mich ist wichtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Schweiz neutral ist.</font>

  801
  00:42:50.640 --> 00:42:52.141 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bewaffnet neutral,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist unser Konzept.</font>

  802
  00:42:52.783 --> 00:42:54.352 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein militärisches Konzept.</font>

  803
  00:42:54.994 --> 00:42:56.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen aber nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gesinnungsneutral sein.</font>

  804
  00:42:57.523 --> 00:42:59.162 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir dürfen eine Meinung haben,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selbstverständlich.</font>

  805
  00:42:59.807 --> 00:43:02.171 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn es Kollege Hegglin</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und die SVP darstellen,</font>

  806
  00:43:02.813 --> 00:43:05.031 
  <font color="#ffffff">als ob sich die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verändert hätte,</font>

  807
  00:43:05.672 --> 00:43:09.831 
  <font color="#ffffff">von einer starren Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu derjenigen heute,</font>

  808
  00:43:10.473 --> 00:43:13.201 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann ist das schlichtweg falsch.</font>

  809
  00:43:13.843 --> 00:43:16.702 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die letzten 100 Jahre - ganz kurz -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">war es schon sehr unterschiedlich.</font>

  810
  00:43:17.343 --> 00:43:19.561 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Zwischenkriegszeit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Zeit des Völkerbundes,</font>

  811
  00:43:20.202 --> 00:43:23.824 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben wir uns wirtschaftlichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sanktionen angeschlossen.</font>

  812
  00:43:24.466 --> 00:43:25.521 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bis zum Abessinienkrieg.</font>

  813
  00:43:26.167 --> 00:43:27.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kam es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur integralen Neutralität.</font>

  814
  00:43:27.892 --> 00:43:28.871 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kam der Zweite Weltkrieg.</font>

  815
  00:43:29.513 --> 00:43:30.892 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort haben wir verschiedentlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen die Neutralität verstossen.</font>

  816
  00:43:31.533 --> 00:43:33.542 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sowohl gegenüber den Deutschen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie auch gegenüber den Amerikanern.</font>

  817
  00:43:34.183 --> 00:43:37.692 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kam der Kalte Krieg -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dort haben wir uns 1951</font>

  818
  00:43:38.334 --> 00:43:41.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">der Blockade gegen die kommunis-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">tischen Staaten angeschlossen.</font>

  819
  00:43:41.893 --> 00:43:44.866 
  <font color="#ffffff">1954 kam die Bindschedler-Doktrin,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wieder sehr integral.</font>

  820
  00:43:45.508 --> 00:43:47.671 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann kam 1989</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Fall der Berliner Mauer.</font>

  821
  00:43:48.313 --> 00:43:52.752 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man sieht, dass die Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz immer auch starr war</font>

  822
  00:43:53.393 --> 00:43:54.841 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Bezug</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf die militärische Neutralität.</font>

  823
  00:43:55.483 --> 00:43:59.321 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber darüber hinaus auch immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Zeit eingebettet.</font>

  824
  00:43:59.962 --> 00:44:01.442 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt haben wir eine Situation,</font>

  825
  00:44:02.083 --> 00:44:05.821 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der wir uns den UNO-Sanktionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anschliessen können müssen.</font>

  826
  00:44:06.463 --> 00:44:08.548 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das muss weiterhin möglich sein.</font>

  827
  00:44:09.190 --> 00:44:12.871 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und es soll immer auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Interesse der Schweiz sein.</font>

  828
  00:44:13.513 --> 00:44:15.831 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hätten wir uns - so wie es</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Initiative der SVP will -</font>

  829
  00:44:16.476 --> 00:44:18.621 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht den Sanktionen gegenüber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Russland anschliessen können,</font>

  830
  00:44:19.263 --> 00:44:22.772 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann hätten wir der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen riesigen Schaden zugefügt.</font>

  831
  00:44:23.413 --> 00:44:24.832 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kann nicht das Ziel sein.</font>

  832
  00:44:25.473 --> 00:44:26.932 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Neutralität ist ein Instrument</font>

  833
  00:44:27.573 --> 00:44:28.970 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Interesse der Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz.</font>

  834
  00:44:29.612 --> 00:44:30.591 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist kein Selbstzweck.</font>

  835
  00:44:31.232 --> 00:44:32.721 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sind schon mitten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">in der Neutralitätsdebatte.</font>

  836
  00:44:33.363 --> 00:44:37.181 
  <font color="#00ffff">Danke für den historischen Abriss,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sehr interessant, wirklich.</font>

  837
  00:44:37.823 --> 00:44:41.131 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es war ein Live-"Arena"-Erklärvideo</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Ihnen sozusagen.</font>

  838
  00:44:41.771 --> 00:44:43.161 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss die Geschichte kennen,</font>

  839
  00:44:43.803 --> 00:44:45.266 
  <font color="#ffffff">um auch die Zukunft</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gestalten zu können.</font>

  840
  00:44:45.909 --> 00:44:46.681 
  <font color="#00ffff">Herr Grossen kurz noch.</font>

  841
  00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:51.315 
  <font color="#ffff00">Putin hat dereinst die Ukraine ver-</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">traglich territorial so akzeptiert.</font>

  842
  00:44:51.953 --> 00:44:57.824 
  <font color="#ffff00">Jetzt hat er das gebrochen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ein krasser Völkerrechtsbruch.</font>

  843
  00:44:58.466 --> 00:45:02.821 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist klar, dass Neutralität nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">bedeutet, keine Haltung zu haben.</font>

  844
  00:45:03.463 --> 00:45:04.801 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist wichtig.</font>

  845
  00:45:05.443 --> 00:45:06.931 
  <font color="#ffff00">Man muss eine Haltung haben,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">auch in der Neutralität.</font>

  846
  00:45:07.572 --> 00:45:09.621 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn man eine Haltung hat</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in einem solchen Konflikt,</font>

  847
  00:45:10.270 --> 00:45:13.371 
  <font color="#ffff00">in dem sonnenklar ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wer Aggressor und wer Opfer ist,</font>

  848
  00:45:14.013 --> 00:45:16.481 
  <font color="#ffff00">muss man dem Opfer beistehen.</font>

  849
  00:45:17.122 --> 00:45:18.682 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gibt keinen Neutralitätsbegriff,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der besagt,</font>

  850
  00:45:19.323 --> 00:45:21.650 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass man den Aggressor und das Opfer</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">gleichstellen muss.</font>

  851
  00:45:22.292 --> 00:45:23.741 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das ist überhaupt nicht so.</font>

  852
  00:45:24.382 --> 00:45:25.951 
  <font color="#ffff00">Man kann sich</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">in einem solch klaren Fall</font>

  853
  00:45:26.593 --> 00:45:28.283 
  <font color="#ffff00">gut auf die Seite des Opfers</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">stellen.</font>

  854
  00:45:28.925 --> 00:45:30.779 
  <font color="#ffff00">Meine Meinung ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dass wir das auch tun müssen.</font>

  855
  00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:34.001 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir müssen es aber so tun, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wir nicht die Türe so zuschlagen,</font>

  856
  00:45:34.643 --> 00:45:37.712 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass Russland im Voraus</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">alles absagt, das ist wichtig.</font>

  857
  00:45:38.353 --> 00:45:40.781 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir müssen irgendwann gegenüber</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Russland eine Türe aufstossen.</font>

  858
  00:45:41.423 --> 00:45:45.706 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn wenn nicht alle am Tisch sind,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">wird es nie einen Frieden geben.</font>

  859
  00:45:46.348 --> 00:45:49.751 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und der Frieden wird nicht einkehren</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">aufgrund des Krieges,</font>

  860
  00:45:50.401 --> 00:45:52.252 
  <font color="#ffff00">sondern aufgrund des Dialoges.</font>

  861
  00:45:52.894 --> 00:45:55.161 
  <font color="#00ffff">Neutralität ist nicht gleich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Neutralität.</font>

  862
  00:45:55.803 --> 00:45:57.470 
  <font color="#00ffff">Man setzt es gerne gleich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit unparteiisch,</font>

  863
  00:45:58.112 --> 00:45:59.810 
  <font color="#00ffff">dabei muss man unterscheiden</font>

  864
  00:46:00.453 --> 00:46:03.151 
  <font color="#00ffff">zwischen Neutralitätsrecht</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Neutralitätspolitik.</font>

  865
  00:46:03.792 --> 00:46:06.464 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie soll bei der Neutralitätspolitik</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Spielraum ausgelegt werden?</font>

  866
  00:46:07.105 --> 00:46:08.911 
  <font color="#00ffff">Darüber sprechen wir gleich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">nach unserem Erklärvideo</font>

  867
  00:46:09.553 --> 00:46:11.381 
  <font color="#00ffff">zu dieser vielzitierten</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Schweizer Neutralität</font>

  868
  00:46:12.024 --> 00:46:13.491 
  <font color="#00ffff">und was da alles so im Gange ist.</font>

  869
  00:46:15.573 --> 00:46:20.411 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz darf als neutrales Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht an Kriegen teilnehmen.</font>

  870
  00:46:21.052 --> 00:46:24.470 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht infrage kommt deshalb</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">grundsätzlich auch der Beitritt</font>

  871
  00:46:25.111 --> 00:46:27.881 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu einem Verteidigungsbündnis,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie etwa der NATO.</font>

  872
  00:46:29.174 --> 00:46:33.501 
  <font color="#ffffff">Beim Export von Rüstungsgütern</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">muss die Schweiz als neutrales Land</font>

  873
  00:46:34.142 --> 00:46:37.231 
  <font color="#ffffff">alle Kriegsparteien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleich behandeln.</font>

  874
  00:46:37.872 --> 00:46:41.891 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Neutralitätsrecht.</font>

  875
  00:46:42.533 --> 00:46:45.653 
  <font color="#ffffff">Daran hat sich die neutrale Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zwingend zu halten.</font>

  876
  00:46:46.294 --> 00:46:50.800 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mehr Gestaltungsspielraum hat die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schweiz bei der Neutralitätspolitik.</font>

  877
  00:46:51.442 --> 00:46:56.161 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese wurde im Verlauf der Zeit je-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weils unterschiedlich ausgestaltet.</font>

  878
  00:46:56.802 --> 00:46:59.751 
  <font color="#ffffff">So hat die Schweiz je nach Fall</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">z.B. auf Sanktionen verzichtet</font>

  879
  00:47:00.392 --> 00:47:02.941 
  <font color="#ffffff">oder solche verhängt.</font>

  880
  00:47:04.749 --> 00:47:07.646 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch bei der Zusammenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit ausländischen Streitkräften</font>

  881
  00:47:08.292 --> 00:47:10.840 
  <font color="#ffffff">sieht der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neutralitätspolitisch Spielraum.</font>

  882
  00:47:11.573 --> 00:47:13.701 
  <font color="#ffffff">z.B. im Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Luftverteidigung.</font>

  883
  00:47:14.342 --> 00:47:16.521 
  <font color="#ffffff">So soll die Schweiz, soweit möglich,</font>

  884
  00:47:17.162 --> 00:47:20.004 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Rahmen der sog.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">European Sky Shield Initiative</font>

  885
  00:47:20.646 --> 00:47:23.862 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit anderen europäischen Staaten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehrheitlich NATO-Ländern,</font>

  886
  00:47:24.504 --> 00:47:26.860 
  <font color="#ffffff">im Bereich Luftverteidigung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammen spannen.</font>

  887
  00:47:27.502 --> 00:47:29.804 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ihre neutralitätsrechtlichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Vorbehalte hat die Schweiz</font>

  888
  00:47:30.446 --> 00:47:32.721 
  <font color="#ffffff">in einer Zusatzerklärung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">festgehalten.</font>

  889
  00:47:33.362 --> 00:47:35.721 
  <font color="#ffffff">Den Spielraum bei</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Neutralitätspolitik einengen</font>

  890
  00:47:36.361 --> 00:47:39.121 
  <font color="#ffffff">will die Neutralitätsinitiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von Pro Schweiz.</font>

  891
  00:47:39.762 --> 00:47:42.880 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Verfassung soll die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">immerwährende und bewaffnete</font>

  892
  00:47:43.522 --> 00:47:44.641 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neutralität verankert werden.</font>

  893
  00:47:45.282 --> 00:47:47.971 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zudem soll die Schweiz keine Sankt-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ionen gegen kriegsführende Staaten</font>

  894
  00:47:48.613 --> 00:47:52.171 
  <font color="#ffffff">verhängen dürfen, ausser sie ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegenüber der UNO dazu verpflichtet.</font>

  895
  00:47:52.812 --> 00:47:57.152 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marianne Binder,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">die SVP spricht gerne von einem</font>

  896
  00:47:57.795 --> 00:48:01.520 
  <font color="#00ffff">schleichenden NATO-Beitritt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und vom NATO-Turbos im Bundeshaus.</font>

  897
  00:48:02.162 --> 00:48:03.590 
  <font color="#00ffff">Fühlen Sie sich angesprochen?</font>

  898
  00:48:04.232 --> 00:48:06.840 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein. Ich finde aber die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Zusammenarbeit mit der NATO</font>

  899
  00:48:07.482 --> 00:48:09.960 
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr wichtig, denn</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir haben gar nicht die Finanzen,</font>

  900
  00:48:10.601 --> 00:48:12.192 
  <font color="#ffffff">um unser Land so zu verteidigen,</font>

  901
  00:48:12.833 --> 00:48:16.280 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie es sich die SVP mit ihrer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Neutralitäts-Initiative vorstellt.</font>

  902
  00:48:16.922 --> 00:48:19.840 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn dann müsste das Militär-Budget</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">massiv erhöht werden.</font>

  903
  00:48:20.482 --> 00:48:23.741 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir brauchen diese Interoperabilität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den NATO-Staaten.</font>

  904
  00:48:24.382 --> 00:48:29.227 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind Teil der westlichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicherheits- und Wertearchitektur.</font>

  905
  00:48:29.868 --> 00:48:32.271 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auch die NATO ist drauf angewiesen,</font>

  906
  00:48:32.912 --> 00:48:35.201 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir uns einigermassen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selber verteidigen können,</font>

  907
  00:48:35.842 --> 00:48:38.241 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber in diesem westlichen Bündnis</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mitarbeiten können,</font>

  908
  00:48:38.883 --> 00:48:41.622 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn der Krieg eskaliert.</font>

  909
  00:48:42.263 --> 00:48:46.011 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Mitarbeit wird nicht bestritten.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frage ist, wie weit sie geht.</font>

  910
  00:48:46.652 --> 00:48:50.053 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">will genau das klären.</font>

  911
  00:48:50.694 --> 00:48:54.210 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die integrale Neutralität, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Thierry Burkart vorher angesprochen</font>

  912
  00:48:54.856 --> 00:48:58.942 
  <font color="#ffffff">hat, in den 20er-Jahren gab es auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neutralitätsmüde Politiker.</font>

  913
  00:48:59.583 --> 00:49:01.550 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die wollten das aufweichen, 1937</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wurde es wieder härter formuliert.</font>

  914
  00:49:02.192 --> 00:49:05.831 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dauerhaft bewaffnet, da man sah,</font>

  915
  00:49:06.472 --> 00:49:08.430 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass der Krieg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vor der Haustüre stand.</font>

  916
  00:49:09.072 --> 00:49:11.750 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für die Politiker in der Schweiz war</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es viel schwieriger,</font>

  917
  00:49:12.391 --> 00:49:15.450 
  <font color="#ffffff">neutral zu bleiben, wenn die Bomben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vor der eigenen Grenze fallen.</font>

  918
  00:49:16.092 --> 00:49:18.281 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe eine Grossmutter,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die wurde 97 Jahre alt.</font>

  919
  00:49:18.922 --> 00:49:21.041 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie hat mir erklärt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was es damals bedeutete,</font>

  920
  00:49:21.682 --> 00:49:23.401 
  <font color="#ffffff">als die Männer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an die Grenze mussten.</font>

  921
  00:49:24.043 --> 00:49:25.490 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie musste den Bauernbetrieb</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu Hause</font>

  922
  00:49:26.131 --> 00:49:27.590 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den kleinen Kindern</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">selber führen.</font>

  923
  00:49:28.231 --> 00:49:30.761 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie waren froh, dass wir in der</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schweiz neutrale Politiker hatten,</font>

  924
  00:49:31.402 --> 00:49:32.830 
  <font color="#ffffff">die sich nicht hinreissen liessen,</font>

  925
  00:49:33.475 --> 00:49:35.640 
  <font color="#ffffff">weder auf die eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch auf die andere Seite.</font>

  926
  00:49:36.286 --> 00:49:38.821 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat ihnen das Leben damals</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gerettet.</font>

  927
  00:49:39.462 --> 00:49:43.580 
  <font color="#ffffff">* Sie sprechen durcheinander. *</font>

  928
  00:49:44.221 --> 00:49:45.630 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben neutralitätsmüde</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Politiker,</font>

  929
  00:49:46.271 --> 00:49:47.712 
  <font color="#ffffff">die in die NATO und auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die EU wollen.</font>

  930
  00:49:48.354 --> 00:49:49.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man will gefallen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das ist ganz gefährlich,</font>

  931
  00:49:50.372 --> 00:49:52.311 
  <font color="#ffffff">v.a. für unsere Nachkommen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz,</font>

  932
  00:49:52.953 --> 00:49:57.880 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit wir nicht in fremde Konflikte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hineingezogen werden.</font>

  933
  00:49:58.522 --> 00:50:00.043 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Marcel Dettling,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was du gesagt hast,</font>

  934
  00:50:00.684 --> 00:50:02.368 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist historisch kompletter Habakuk.</font>

  935
  00:50:03.009 --> 00:50:05.731 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sagt der Historiker Jon Pult</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus dem Bündnerland.</font>

  936
  00:50:06.373 --> 00:50:07.690 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich sage es Ihnen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist so.</font>

  937
  00:50:08.332 --> 00:50:10.680 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jurist Thierry Burkart</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat es vorher richtig gesagt:</font>

  938
  00:50:11.322 --> 00:50:12.991 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gab wahrscheinlich keine Zeit,</font>

  939
  00:50:13.632 --> 00:50:15.281 
  <font color="#ffffff">in der sich die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">so wenig neutral verhalten hat,</font>

  940
  00:50:15.922 --> 00:50:17.321 
  <font color="#ffffff">wie während des Zweiten Weltkriegs.</font>

  941
  00:50:17.962 --> 00:50:20.690 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wahrscheinlich war das notwendig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich kritisiere es nicht.</font>

  942
  00:50:21.331 --> 00:50:24.072 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber zu behaupten, die Zeit vor</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und während des Zweiten Weltkrieges</font>

  943
  00:50:24.714 --> 00:50:28.393 
  <font color="#ffffff">sei die hohe Zeit der Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gewesen, ist einfach falsch.</font>

  944
  00:50:29.034 --> 00:50:31.361 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es nervt mich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das immer wieder gesagt wird.</font>

  945
  00:50:32.003 --> 00:50:34.281 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben den Zweiten Weltkrieg</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wahrscheinlich überstanden,</font>

  946
  00:50:34.927 --> 00:50:36.480 
  <font color="#ffffff">da wir z.T. nicht neutral waren.</font>

  947
  00:50:37.121 --> 00:50:39.560 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damit haben wir auch moralisch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">viel Schuld auf uns geladen.</font>

  948
  00:50:40.201 --> 00:50:42.830 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber zu sagen, dass wir es über-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">standen haben, da wir neutral waren,</font>

  949
  00:50:43.472 --> 00:50:45.670 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist komplett falsch.</font>

  950
  00:50:46.312 --> 00:50:47.970 
  <font color="#ffffff">Noch etwas muss gesagt werden:</font>

  951
  00:50:48.614 --> 00:50:53.470 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir leben heute in einer absolut</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gefährlichen, schwierigen Welt.</font>

  952
  00:50:54.111 --> 00:50:56.917 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Völkerrecht wird an vielen Orten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">angegriffen.</font>

  953
  00:50:57.557 --> 00:51:01.760 
  <font color="#ffffff">Für einen kleinen Staat wie die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schweiz gibt es nichts Wichtigeres,</font>

  954
  00:51:02.401 --> 00:51:03.843 
  <font color="#ffffff">als dass das Völkerrecht überlebt.</font>

  955
  00:51:04.481 --> 00:51:09.251 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Stärke des Rechts</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">statt das Recht des Stärkeren.</font>

  956
  00:51:09.892 --> 00:51:11.750 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da müssen wir doch das Völkerrecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">politisch verteidigen.</font>

  957
  00:51:12.391 --> 00:51:15.297 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir das nicht tun,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">begehen wir einen groben Fehler.</font>

  958
  00:51:15.939 --> 00:51:18.670 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals gab es noch nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die kollektive Sicherheit der UNO,</font>

  959
  00:51:19.314 --> 00:51:21.370 
  <font color="#ffffff">den Multilateralismus</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gab es so noch nicht.</font>

  960
  00:51:22.012 --> 00:51:23.554 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das müssen wir doch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der heutigen Zeit verteidigen,</font>

  961
  00:51:24.196 --> 00:51:26.041 
  <font color="#ffffff">sonst verraten wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unsere eigenen Werte.</font>

  962
  00:51:28.122 --> 00:51:34.140 
  <font color="#ffffff">Damals, als unsere Bundesverfassung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">1847/1848 gemacht wurde,</font>

  963
  00:51:34.785 --> 00:51:36.390 
  <font color="#ffffff">hatten wir sehr gescheite Leute.</font>

  964
  00:51:37.031 --> 00:51:38.440 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sie haben sich intensiv</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">darüber unterhalten,</font>

  965
  00:51:39.081 --> 00:51:42.010 
  <font color="#ffffff">ob die Schweizer Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Zweckartikel</font>

  966
  00:51:42.652 --> 00:51:44.830 
  <font color="#ffffff">fest gelegt werden soll oder nicht.</font>

  967
  00:51:45.472 --> 00:51:47.620 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hat sich aus guten Gründen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dagegen entschieden.</font>

  968
  00:51:48.261 --> 00:51:50.080 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man sagte: "Wir sind neutral,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir wollen neutral sein sein."</font>

  969
  00:51:50.721 --> 00:51:53.590 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb wurde das auch in die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aufgaben von Bundesrat und Parlament</font>

  970
  00:51:54.233 --> 00:51:56.610 
  <font color="#ffffff">geschrieben, aber nicht im Zweck.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn man wollte keinen Selbstzweck.</font>

  971
  00:51:57.251 --> 00:51:59.970 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man braucht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gewisse Flexibilität,</font>

  972
  00:52:00.611 --> 00:52:03.660 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht im militärischen Sinn,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern im politischen Sinn.</font>

  973
  00:52:04.301 --> 00:52:08.910 
  <font color="#ffffff">Schauen wir noch einmal zurück:</font>

  974
  00:52:09.552 --> 00:52:14.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbst General Guisan hat damals</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einen Plan gemacht, "Operation H".</font>

  975
  00:52:15.492 --> 00:52:18.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Mit Frankreich zusammen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hat er geplant, was wäre,</font>

  976
  00:52:19.492 --> 00:52:21.652 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn Deutschland die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Umgehungsort</font>

  977
  00:52:22.293 --> 00:52:24.560 
  <font color="#ffffff">militärisch nutzen würde.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Man hätte zusammengespannt.</font>

  978
  00:52:25.201 --> 00:52:27.310 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist genau das,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was man heute tun sollte.</font>

  979
  00:52:27.951 --> 00:52:30.771 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht der NATO beitreten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich bin gegen einen NATO-Beitritt.</font>

  980
  00:52:31.411 --> 00:52:33.942 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber mit der NATO</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und mit den umliegenden Staaten</font>

  981
  00:52:34.587 --> 00:52:38.671 
  <font color="#ffffff">planen und allenfalls trainieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was wäre,</font>

  982
  00:52:39.312 --> 00:52:40.220 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn die Schweiz bedroht ist.</font>

  983
  00:52:40.863 --> 00:52:42.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und sind wir ehrlich,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn die Schweiz bedroht ist,</font>

  984
  00:52:43.491 --> 00:52:45.140 
  <font color="#ffffff">wären wahrscheinlich grosse Teile</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Europas bedroht.</font>

  985
  00:52:45.781 --> 00:52:47.300 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und dann muss man</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zusammenarbeiten können.</font>

  986
  00:52:47.942 --> 00:52:53.120 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt auch Bedrohungssituationen -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">z.B. Langstreckenraketen -,</font>

  987
  00:52:53.762 --> 00:52:56.679 
  <font color="#ffffff">gegen die wir uns alleine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gar nicht wehren können.</font>

  988
  00:52:57.322 --> 00:53:02.225 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb muss es doch im Nutzen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz, der Bevölkerung sein,</font>

  989
  00:53:02.867 --> 00:53:07.520 
  <font color="#ffffff">und nicht einfach ein starres</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gebilde, das uns daran hindert,</font>

  990
  00:53:08.161 --> 00:53:09.557 
  <font color="#ffffff">das Beste zu tun für dieses Land.</font>

  991
  00:53:10.206 --> 00:53:11.932 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber gerade bei den Übungen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zu diesem Bündnisfall</font>

  992
  00:53:12.574 --> 00:53:15.710 
  <font color="#00ffff">gab es interessante Koalitionen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">oder Allianzen diese Woche.</font>

  993
  00:53:16.351 --> 00:53:23.640 
  <font color="#00ffff">SVP, SP und Grüne, lassen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wir uns das auf der Zunge zergehen,</font>

  994
  00:53:24.281 --> 00:53:28.120 
  <font color="#00ffff">haben sich gegen solche Übungen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ausgesprochen.</font>

  995
  00:53:28.764 --> 00:53:31.620 
  <font color="#00ffff">Da bricht Ihr flammendes Plädoyer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gleich wieder zusammen, Jon Pult.</font>

  996
  00:53:32.261 --> 00:53:33.920 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, ich habe vom Völkerrecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gesprochen</font>

  997
  00:53:34.561 --> 00:53:37.451 
  <font color="#ffffff">und dass wir das Völkerrecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">verteidigen müssen.</font>

  998
  00:53:38.092 --> 00:53:39.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da bin ich flammend.</font>

  999
  00:53:40.292 --> 00:53:42.149 
  <font color="#ffffff">Hingegen glaube ich schon, dass wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der militärischen Neutralität</font>

  1000
  00:53:42.791 --> 00:53:44.202 
  <font color="#ffffff">sehr genau und vorsichtig sein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">müssen.</font>

  1001
  00:53:44.844 --> 00:53:46.861 
  <font color="#ffffff">Einen NATO-Beitritt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schliesse ich total aus.</font>

  1002
  00:53:47.502 --> 00:53:50.305 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber nur schon, bei Bündnisfall-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Übungen mitzumachen -</font>

  1003
  00:53:50.946 --> 00:53:52.519 
  <font color="#ffffff">es gibt auch unproblematische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Kooperationen -,</font>

  1004
  00:53:53.161 --> 00:53:56.542 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist gegenüber dem Rest der Welt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Zeichen,</font>

  1005
  00:53:57.183 --> 00:53:58.820 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man diesen Bündnisfall</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">trainiert.</font>

  1006
  00:53:59.461 --> 00:54:03.850 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frage kann also gestellt werden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ob die Schweiz noch bündnisfrei ist.</font>

  1007
  00:54:04.492 --> 00:54:07.129 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich finde es richtig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das viel genauer anzuschauen.</font>

  1008
  00:54:07.771 --> 00:54:12.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">Bei der European Sky Shield Initia-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">tive habe ich eine andere Haltung.</font>

  1009
  00:54:12.849 --> 00:54:14.250 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist kein NATO-Konstrukt.</font>

  1010
  00:54:14.891 --> 00:54:17.980 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es sind Staaten, die gemeinsam eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rein defensive Infrastruktur bauen,</font>

  1011
  00:54:18.621 --> 00:54:22.769 
  <font color="#ffffff">um den Luftraum zu schützen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das finde ich notwendig und wichtig.</font>

  1012
  00:54:23.410 --> 00:54:27.620 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber in diesem Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">muss man sehr präzise sein.</font>

  1013
  00:54:28.702 --> 00:54:31.400 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gegen das Verbot und</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">für diese Übungen ausgesprochen</font>

  1014
  00:54:32.042 --> 00:54:34.283 
  <font color="#00ffff">haben sich FDP, Mitte</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und Grünliberale.</font>

  1015
  00:54:34.924 --> 00:54:36.200 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sehen das komplett anders?</font>

  1016
  00:54:36.842 --> 00:54:39.859 
  <font color="#ffff00">Total anders. Es ist doch nicht so,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">dass wir den Frieden üben müssen,</font>

  1017
  00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:42.569 
  <font color="#ffff00">wir müssen den Ernstfall üben.</font>

  1018
  00:54:43.211 --> 00:54:45.399 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn es einen Ernstfall gäbe,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">ist völlig klar,</font>

  1019
  00:54:46.041 --> 00:54:48.990 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass wir aus NATO-Sicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das Loch im Donut sind.</font>

  1020
  00:54:49.631 --> 00:54:52.950 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und irgendwie müssen wir mitmachen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">damit wir das Loch stopfen können.</font>

  1021
  00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:54.473 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das Loch im Donut?</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">- Genau.</font>

  1022
  00:54:55.114 --> 00:54:56.542 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich habe dieses Wort nur nicht</font>

  1023
  00:54:57.183 --> 00:54:59.759 
  <font color="#00ffff">im Zusammenhang</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit dieser Diskussion erwartet.</font>

  1024
  00:55:00.401 --> 00:55:03.099 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist eine Sicherheitslücke.</font>

  1025
  00:55:03.741 --> 00:55:10.720 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist völlig klar, dass wir mit den</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">NATO-Staaten gemeinsame Übungen ...</font>

  1026
  00:55:11.361 --> 00:55:13.210 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich will auch nicht in die NATO,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">aber gemeinsame Übungen</font>

  1027
  00:55:13.851 --> 00:55:15.297 
  <font color="#ffff00">sind für uns zwingend.</font>

  1028
  00:55:15.932 --> 00:55:18.739 
  <font color="#ffff00">Nicht nur mit Waffen,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">sondern auch im Cyber-,</font>

  1029
  00:55:19.381 --> 00:55:21.359 
  <font color="#ffff00">Kommunikations- und</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Informationsbereich.</font>

  1030
  00:55:22.001 --> 00:55:23.530 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn man nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die gleiche Sprache spricht,</font>

  1031
  00:55:24.171 --> 00:55:26.580 
  <font color="#ffff00">wie es im Bündnisfall</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zur Anwendung kommen würde,</font>

  1032
  00:55:27.221 --> 00:55:30.660 
  <font color="#ffff00">ist man nicht kooperationsfähig.</font>

  1033
  00:55:31.301 --> 00:55:33.929 
  <font color="#ffff00">Und genau das müssen wir trainieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das ist absolut notwendig.</font>

  1034
  00:55:34.571 --> 00:55:35.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Burkart) Es geht nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um den Bündnisfall</font>

  1035
  00:55:36.371 --> 00:55:38.475 
  <font color="#ffffff">und das Trainieren mit Schweizer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Truppen an der Ostflanke Europas.</font>

  1036
  00:55:39.117 --> 00:55:42.539 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sondern es geht darum, dass man sich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">besser schützen kann in einem Fall,</font>

  1037
  00:55:43.182 --> 00:55:45.670 
  <font color="#ffffff">der hoffentlich nie eintreten wird.</font>

  1038
  00:55:46.311 --> 00:55:48.900 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neutralität ist zum Schutz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz da.</font>

  1039
  00:55:49.541 --> 00:55:50.919 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist kein pazifistisches Modell.</font>

  1040
  00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:54.939 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb braucht es auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine starke Schweizer Armee,</font>

  1041
  00:55:55.580 --> 00:55:57.819 
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Neutralität schützen kann.</font>

  1042
  00:55:58.461 --> 00:56:00.660 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das war immer das Konzept: Wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben nicht nur eine Neutralität,</font>

  1043
  00:56:01.301 --> 00:56:02.770 
  <font color="#ffffff">sondern eine bewaffnete Neutralität.</font>

  1044
  00:56:03.410 --> 00:56:06.650 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb haben die SP und die Grünen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein total zwiespältiges Verhältnis</font>

  1045
  00:56:07.291 --> 00:56:10.491 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu dieser Thematik,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">da sie eigentlich Pazifismus meinen,</font>

  1046
  00:56:11.133 --> 00:56:13.839 
  <font color="#ffffff">und Neutralität sagen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist aber nicht das Konzept.</font>

  1047
  00:56:14.481 --> 00:56:17.880 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone von</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Pazifistenpartei, den Grünen.</font>

  1048
  00:56:18.521 --> 00:56:19.500 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben gelächelt, warum?</font>

  1049
  00:56:20.141 --> 00:56:24.490 
  <font color="#008000">Weil ich finde, dass wir eine</font>
  <font color="#008000">militärische Neutralität haben.</font>

  1050
  00:56:25.132 --> 00:56:27.805 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist richtig,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dass wir darüber sprechen.</font>

  1051
  00:56:28.446 --> 00:56:34.030 
  <font color="#008000">Es gibt sicher eine Kooperation mit</font>
  <font color="#008000">der NATO, da wir in der Mitte sind.</font>

  1052
  00:56:34.671 --> 00:56:40.430 
  <font color="#008000">Aber wir diskutieren darüber,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wie weit es gehen kann.</font>

  1053
  00:56:41.071 --> 00:56:44.760 
  <font color="#008000">Und genau das gleiche -</font>
  <font color="#008000">deshalb habe ich gelächelt -,</font>

  1054
  00:56:45.402 --> 00:56:49.359 
  <font color="#008000">gilt auch für die Aufrüstung</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Armee in der Schweiz.</font>

  1055
  00:56:50.001 --> 00:56:53.889 
  <font color="#008000">Ich finde, im Moment ist der Graben</font>
  <font color="#008000">zwischen dem, was im Parlament</font>

  1056
  00:56:54.531 --> 00:56:57.450 
  <font color="#008000">und in der Bevölkerung</font>
  <font color="#008000">diskutiert wird, extrem gross.</font>

  1057
  00:56:58.091 --> 00:57:02.260 
  <font color="#008000">Die Szenarien mit russischen Panzern</font>
  <font color="#008000">vor der Grenze,</font>

  1058
  00:57:02.902 --> 00:57:10.549 
  <font color="#008000">dass wir dafür aufrüsten</font>
  <font color="#008000">und dafür alles auf Eis legen,</font>

  1059
  00:57:11.191 --> 00:57:15.330 
  <font color="#008000">was unseren Alltag konkret betrifft,</font>

  1060
  00:57:15.971 --> 00:57:22.809 
  <font color="#008000">Kita-Plätze, aber auch ÖV,</font>
  <font color="#008000">Regionalverkehr oder Landwirtschaft.</font>

  1061
  00:57:23.450 --> 00:57:29.949 
  <font color="#008000">Alles wird im Bundeshaus</font>
  <font color="#008000">so diskutiert:</font>

  1062
  00:57:30.591 --> 00:57:34.989 
  <font color="#008000">"Wie kann man Mrd. und Mrd.</font>
  <font color="#008000">dort ausgeben?"</font>

  1063
  00:57:35.630 --> 00:57:39.489 
  <font color="#008000">Aber vielleicht sollte man</font>
  <font color="#008000">mit der Bevölkerung sprechen</font>

  1064
  00:57:40.130 --> 00:57:44.597 
  <font color="#008000">und den Mut haben,</font>
  <font color="#008000">das vor die Bevölkerung zu bringen,</font>

  1065
  00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:47.209 
  <font color="#008000">damit es einmal</font>
  <font color="#008000">eine Volksabstimmung gibt.</font>

  1066
  00:57:47.851 --> 00:57:50.079 
  <font color="#008000">Dann wissen wir,</font>
  <font color="#008000">ob es wirklich richtig ist,</font>

  1067
  00:57:50.721 --> 00:57:54.911 
  <font color="#008000">diese finanzielle Priorität</font>
  <font color="#008000">so zu setzen. Ich bin nicht dabei.</font>

  1068
  00:57:55.556 --> 00:57:57.339 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Aber ist dieser</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">pazifistische Ansatz</font>

  1069
  00:57:57.980 --> 00:57:59.610 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht ein bisschen ...</font>
  <font color="#008000">- Es ist kein pazifistischer Ansatz.</font>

  1070
  00:58:00.252 --> 00:58:04.819 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denken wir an die Ukraine: Dort wird</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht mit Wattebauschen geschossen.</font>

  1071
  00:58:05.461 --> 00:58:07.030 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es wird mit Waffen geschossen.</font>

  1072
  00:58:07.671 --> 00:58:11.709 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und die Eskalation in Europa</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kann tatsächlich geschehen.</font>

  1073
  00:58:12.350 --> 00:58:13.859 
  <font color="#ffffff">Verschiedene Länder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schätzen das so ein.</font>

  1074
  00:58:14.500 --> 00:58:17.410 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nehmen wir das Bild des Donuts auf,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das Jürg Grossen vorher verwendete.</font>

  1075
  00:58:18.051 --> 00:58:21.589 
  <font color="#ffffff">Er meint damit,</font>

  1076
  00:58:22.231 --> 00:58:25.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass die Schweiz mitten in Europa</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine Sicherheitslücke bildet,</font>

  1077
  00:58:26.371 --> 00:58:31.759 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil sie nicht genug ausgerüstet</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist, um das Land zu verteidigen</font>

  1078
  00:58:32.401 --> 00:58:36.199 
  <font color="#ffffff">und auch nicht der NATO angehört.</font>

  1079
  00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:41.059 
  <font color="#ffffff">Alt Bundesrat Villiger hat kürzlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ein ganz anderes Szenario gemalt.</font>

  1080
  00:58:41.701 --> 00:58:48.259 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir meinen ja, wir würden wie die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Made im Speckmantel der NATO sitzen.</font>

  1081
  00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:50.739 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein Journalist hat dieses Bild</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gemalt.</font>

  1082
  00:58:51.380 --> 00:58:53.509 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist eher das Bild</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Sicherheitslücke.</font>

  1083
  00:58:54.150 --> 00:58:57.809 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind nicht in der NATO,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für uns gilt Art. 5 nicht,</font>

  1084
  00:58:58.451 --> 00:59:02.469 
  <font color="#ffffff">und durch Langstreckenwaffen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">können bei einer Eskalation</font>

  1085
  00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:11.741 
  <font color="#ffffff">wesentliche Energieinfrastrukturen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im Herzen Europas zerstört werden.</font>

  1086
  00:59:12.383 --> 00:59:13.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die NATO hilft uns nicht.</font>

  1087
  00:59:15.482 --> 00:59:17.999 
  <font color="#008000">Aber man muss ganz klar sagen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">worüber wir sprechen.</font>

  1088
  00:59:18.641 --> 00:59:20.239 
  <font color="#008000">Oder worüber ihr sprecht</font>
  <font color="#008000">im Bundeshaus.</font>

  1089
  00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:23.409 
  <font color="#008000">Ihr sprecht über Panzerartillerie,</font>
  <font color="#008000">Bodenkapazitäten.</font>

  1090
  00:59:24.051 --> 00:59:28.159 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist auch der Grund,</font>
  <font color="#008000">weshalb man überall kürzen muss.</font>

  1091
  00:59:28.801 --> 00:59:32.609 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">eine Frage der Prioritäten,</font>

  1092
  00:59:33.249 --> 00:59:35.090 
  <font color="#008000">auch bei der Sicherheit.</font>

  1093
  00:59:35.730 --> 00:59:38.745 
  <font color="#008000">Es sind keine Cyberfragen</font>
  <font color="#008000">oder Desinformation</font>

  1094
  00:59:39.386 --> 00:59:40.989 
  <font color="#008000">oder Destabilisierung</font>
  <font color="#008000">der Demokratien.</font>

  1095
  00:59:41.630 --> 00:59:44.141 
  <font color="#008000">Das sind die Prioritäten.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- (Binder) Machen wir auch.</font>

  1096
  00:59:44.785 --> 00:59:50.569 
  <font color="#008000">Dieses Bild, dass wir alles</font>
  <font color="#008000">für diese Art von Armee wollen</font>

  1097
  00:59:51.211 --> 00:59:55.329 
  <font color="#008000">und dafür bereit sind,</font>
  <font color="#008000">Milliarden auszugeben.</font>

  1098
  00:59:55.970 --> 01:00:00.600 
  <font color="#008000">Ihr wollt dieses Armeebudget</font>
  <font color="#008000">verdoppeln bis 2030 -</font>

  1099
  01:00:01.241 --> 01:00:02.489 
  <font color="#008000">darüber sprechen wir.</font>

  1100
  01:00:03.130 --> 01:00:04.689 
  <font color="#008000">Das sind Milliarden,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die anderswo fehlen.</font>

  1101
  01:00:05.330 --> 01:00:07.409 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Wir machen ja beides.</font>

  1102
  01:00:08.051 --> 01:00:09.561 
  <font color="#008000">Aber dafür macht man</font>
  <font color="#008000">vieles nicht mehr.</font>

  1103
  01:00:10.204 --> 01:00:11.169 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Aber im Zweck ...</font>

  1104
  01:00:11.811 --> 01:00:13.169 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone mischt</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">diese Runde und diese "Arena"</font>

  1105
  01:00:13.810 --> 01:00:19.225 
  <font color="#00ffff">mit einer Diskussion in Richtung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Armeedebatte, Kita-Plätze usw. auf.</font>

  1106
  01:00:19.868 --> 01:00:21.460 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich habe das ein wenig zugelassen,</font>

  1107
  01:00:22.101 --> 01:00:23.599 
  <font color="#00ffff">weil es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">interessante Bruchlinien sind,</font>

  1108
  01:00:24.240 --> 01:00:25.239 
  <font color="#00ffff">auch andere als sonst.</font>

  1109
  01:00:25.879 --> 01:00:28.799 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das Bild des Donuts</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">lässt mich nicht los.</font>

  1110
  01:00:29.441 --> 01:00:31.569 
  <font color="#00ffff">Danke dafür, Jürg Grossen.</font>

  1111
  01:00:32.210 --> 01:00:35.419 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">es ist einfach runtergebrochen,</font>

  1112
  01:00:36.060 --> 01:00:38.230 
  <font color="#00ffff">auf welcher Position</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sich die Schweiz befindet.</font>

  1113
  01:00:38.872 --> 01:00:40.339 
  <font color="#00ffff">Oder für Sie eben nicht?</font>

  1114
  01:00:40.981 --> 01:00:42.449 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist sehr einfach erklärt worden.</font>

  1115
  01:00:43.092 --> 01:00:46.159 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber noch als Replik: Ohne Si-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">cherheit gibt es keine Kita-Plätze.</font>

  1116
  01:00:46.801 --> 01:00:49.269 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn Sie nicht bereit sind,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Sicherheit zu investieren,</font>

  1117
  01:00:49.910 --> 01:00:51.829 
  <font color="#ffffff">brauchen Sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">kein Geld für die Kitas.</font>

  1118
  01:00:52.470 --> 01:00:54.789 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in den letzten Jahren</font>

  1119
  01:00:55.432 --> 01:00:56.857 
  <font color="#ffffff">auf der linken Seite gefehlt.</font>

  1120
  01:00:57.498 --> 01:00:58.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">Überall bei der Armee</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wollte man immer sparen.</font>

  1121
  01:00:59.570 --> 01:01:02.224 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben heute einen Bestand</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von 100'000 Armeeangehörigen.</font>

  1122
  01:01:02.863 --> 01:01:05.938 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht einmal alle</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind voll ausgerüstet, nur 80'000.</font>

  1123
  01:01:06.580 --> 01:01:09.680 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da hat die Mitte auch grosszügig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mitgeholfen bei dieser Sparübung.</font>

  1124
  01:01:10.321 --> 01:01:13.131 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht einmal alle haben eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schutzweste in der Schweizer Armee.</font>

  1125
  01:01:13.772 --> 01:01:15.969 
  <font color="#ffffff">Lass mich auch schnell reden,</font>

  1126
  01:01:16.611 --> 01:01:18.069 
  <font color="#ffffff">du konntest vorher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ziemlich lange sprechen.</font>

  1127
  01:01:18.711 --> 01:01:20.109 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">vorhin den Bürgenstock gesehen.</font>

  1128
  01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:22.601 
  <font color="#00ffff">Kommen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch auf den Donut zurück?</font>

  1129
  01:01:23.245 --> 01:01:25.138 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das hat auch einen Zusammenhang.</font>

  1130
  01:01:25.780 --> 01:01:28.829 
  <font color="#ffffff">In der Zentralschweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind 4'000 Armeeangehörige,</font>

  1131
  01:01:29.472 --> 01:01:30.900 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit sie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diesen Berg schützen können.</font>

  1132
  01:01:31.542 --> 01:01:33.380 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch 100'000 Armeeangehörige,</font>

  1133
  01:01:34.022 --> 01:01:35.511 
  <font color="#ffffff">80'000 davon voll ausgerüstet.</font>

  1134
  01:01:36.152 --> 01:01:39.020 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese sollten in der Lage sein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Schweiz zu schützen?</font>

  1135
  01:01:39.661 --> 01:01:41.151 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da können Sie sich selber ausmalen,</font>

  1136
  01:01:41.792 --> 01:01:43.849 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn wir schon 4'000 brauchen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um einen Berg zu schützen.</font>

  1137
  01:01:44.491 --> 01:01:46.199 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt geht es darum,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Armee zu stärken</font>

  1138
  01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:48.719 
  <font color="#ffffff">und die finanziellen Mittel</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bereitzustellen,</font>

  1139
  01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:52.189 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit eben die Kitas</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch sicher sind in Zukunft.</font>

  1140
  01:01:52.830 --> 01:01:55.109 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da müssen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jetzt Prioritäten setzen.</font>

  1141
  01:01:55.751 --> 01:01:58.828 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Linke,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult und seine Kollegen</font>

  1142
  01:01:59.470 --> 01:02:02.469 
  <font color="#ffffff">wollen die Armee schon lange</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abschaffen, das ist bekannt.</font>

  1143
  01:02:03.111 --> 01:02:07.819 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die sind auch an erster Stelle,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn es um Waffenlieferungen geht.</font>

  1144
  01:02:08.460 --> 01:02:12.119 
  <font color="#ffffff">Zuerst wollte man die Armee und</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Sicherheit an die Wand fahren,</font>

  1145
  01:02:12.761 --> 01:02:15.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">jetzt ist man in der ersten Reihe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn es darum geht,</font>

  1146
  01:02:15.850 --> 01:02:17.228 
  <font color="#ffffff">möglichst viele Waffen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu exportieren.</font>

  1147
  01:02:17.870 --> 01:02:19.929 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da sehen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den herrschenden Konflikt.</font>

  1148
  01:02:20.571 --> 01:02:21.839 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt müssen wir das Richtige tun.</font>

  1149
  01:02:22.485 --> 01:02:24.249 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">lange genug das Falsche getan.</font>

  1150
  01:02:24.895 --> 01:02:26.341 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt in die Sicherheit investieren.</font>

  1151
  01:02:26.982 --> 01:02:30.639 
  <font color="#00ffff">Die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als Loch in diesem NATO-Donut drin.</font>

  1152
  01:02:31.281 --> 01:02:35.390 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich möchte Herrn Dettling</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch darauf behaften. Kurz.</font>

  1153
  01:02:36.032 --> 01:02:37.498 
  <font color="#00ffff">Er ist ausgewichen.</font>

  1154
  01:02:38.140 --> 01:02:41.779 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich politisiere nicht mit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Süssartikeln, mit Donuts. - Okay.</font>

  1155
  01:02:42.419 --> 01:02:45.035 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir machen Realpolitik,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir machen Sicherheitspolitik.</font>

  1156
  01:02:45.670 --> 01:02:47.599 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir spielen nicht den Bäcker.</font>

  1157
  01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:52.528 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt Linke,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die die Armee abschaffen wollen.</font>

  1158
  01:02:53.170 --> 01:02:55.277 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich bitte zu akzeptieren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass ich nicht dazu gehöre.</font>

  1159
  01:02:55.919 --> 01:02:57.499 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe ja</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für den Bundesrat kandidiert,</font>

  1160
  01:02:58.140 --> 01:02:59.548 
  <font color="#ffffff">da wurde es mir auch vorgeworfen.</font>

  1161
  01:03:00.190 --> 01:03:01.560 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe immer gesagt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht stimmt.</font>

  1162
  01:03:02.201 --> 01:03:03.599 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Abschaffung der Armee.</font>

  1163
  01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:05.659 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber ich nehme mir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Freiheit heraus,</font>

  1164
  01:03:06.301 --> 01:03:07.790 
  <font color="#ffffff">mir eigene Gedanken dazu zu machen,</font>

  1165
  01:03:08.432 --> 01:03:09.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">was es für die Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz braucht.</font>

  1166
  01:03:10.490 --> 01:03:11.908 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass es eine Armee braucht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist mir klar.</font>

  1167
  01:03:12.550 --> 01:03:14.498 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber vielleicht nicht die genau</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gleiche wie in Ihren Vorstellungen.</font>

  1168
  01:03:15.140 --> 01:03:16.200 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt zum Bild des Donuts.</font>

  1169
  01:03:16.841 --> 01:03:18.228 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das Bild kann stimmen,</font>

  1170
  01:03:18.870 --> 01:03:20.979 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man es aus der Logik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines Luftangriffs denkt.</font>

  1171
  01:03:21.620 --> 01:03:24.979 
  <font color="#ffffff">Oder aus der Logik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines terroristischen Angriffs.</font>

  1172
  01:03:25.621 --> 01:03:28.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aus Sicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eines terrestrischen Angriffs,</font>

  1173
  01:03:28.650 --> 01:03:30.038 
  <font color="#ffffff">also mit Panzern und Bataillonen,</font>

  1174
  01:03:30.680 --> 01:03:32.729 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist die Donut-Logik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">völlig unangebracht.</font>

  1175
  01:03:33.370 --> 01:03:36.082 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das sagen auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Bedrohungsszenarien des Bundes.</font>

  1176
  01:03:36.724 --> 01:03:38.743 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist extrem unwahrscheinlich,</font>

  1177
  01:03:39.384 --> 01:03:42.782 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass Putins Panzer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis zum Bodensee rollen können.</font>

  1178
  01:03:43.423 --> 01:03:46.848 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber es gibt eine Gefahr von</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Luft und aus dem Land heraus,</font>

  1179
  01:03:47.490 --> 01:03:50.909 
  <font color="#ffffff">durch Desinformation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Cyberangriffe.</font>

  1180
  01:03:51.551 --> 01:03:53.379 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dagegen müssen wir uns wappnen.</font>

  1181
  01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:56.160 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb sind wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Sky-Shield-Initiative.</font>

  1182
  01:03:56.801 --> 01:04:00.028 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen unsere kritische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">digitale und reale Infrastruktur</font>

  1183
  01:04:00.669 --> 01:04:03.188 
  <font color="#ffffff">besser verteidigen.</font>

  1184
  01:04:03.830 --> 01:04:04.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da sind wir verletzlich.</font>

  1185
  01:04:05.500 --> 01:04:07.358 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen mehr gegen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Desinformationskampagnen tun.</font>

  1186
  01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:10.738 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht nur die Russen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">machen extrem viel.</font>

  1187
  01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:14.839 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da müssen wir mehr tun.</font>

  1188
  01:04:15.481 --> 01:04:17.428 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir brauchen nicht mehr Panzer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und eine grössere Armee.</font>

  1189
  01:04:18.069 --> 01:04:21.378 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber Jon Pult, du hast den</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schutz des Luftraums angesprochen.</font>

  1190
  01:04:22.020 --> 01:04:23.605 
  <font color="#ffffff">Du warst gegen die Beschaffung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">neuer Kampfflugzeuge,</font>

  1191
  01:04:24.246 --> 01:04:24.778 
  <font color="#ffffff">aber lassen wir das einmal.</font>

  1192
  01:04:25.420 --> 01:04:27.180 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Ich war gegen die Beschaffung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">d i e s e s  Kampfflugzeugs.</font>

  1193
  01:04:27.822 --> 01:04:28.298 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht generell.</font>

  1194
  01:04:28.939 --> 01:04:30.484 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nein, der Typ war noch nicht klar</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei der Abstimmung.</font>

  1195
  01:04:31.122 --> 01:04:33.179 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich erinnere dich gerne daran.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das spielt jetzt keine Rolle.</font>

  1196
  01:04:33.820 --> 01:04:35.318 
  <font color="#ffffff">Fakt ist doch, da möchte ich dich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">direkt ansprechen:</font>

  1197
  01:04:35.959 --> 01:04:38.728 
  <font color="#ffffff">Du sagst, die Wahrscheinlichkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">terrestrischer Angriffe sei klein,</font>

  1198
  01:04:39.369 --> 01:04:41.258 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir durch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">NATO-Länder geschützt sind.</font>

  1199
  01:04:41.899 --> 01:04:44.098 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber du bist doch derjenige</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit deiner Partei zusammen,</font>

  1200
  01:04:44.740 --> 01:04:47.138 
  <font color="#ffffff">der immer wieder an die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">europäische Solidarität appelliert.</font>

  1201
  01:04:47.780 --> 01:04:49.518 
  <font color="#ffffff">Du sagst doch immer, die Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dürfe nicht abseits stehen.</font>

  1202
  01:04:50.160 --> 01:04:52.329 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir hätten eine Verpflichtung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gegenüber Europa.</font>

  1203
  01:04:52.971 --> 01:04:55.988 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und nur in diesem Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sparst du es einfach aus.</font>

  1204
  01:04:56.629 --> 01:04:57.589 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Nein.</font>

  1205
  01:04:58.230 --> 01:04:59.568 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ein ganz kurzer Hinweis:</font>

  1206
  01:05:00.210 --> 01:05:01.639 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin Mitglied der OSZE-Delegation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Schweiz.</font>

  1207
  01:05:02.281 --> 01:05:04.426 
  <font color="#ffffff">An der letzten Sammlung habe ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einem grünen Abgeordneten</font>

  1208
  01:05:05.068 --> 01:05:06.588 
  <font color="#ffffff">von Österreich gesprochen.</font>

  1209
  01:05:07.230 --> 01:05:08.969 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sprechen in der Schweiz von 1 %</font>

  1210
  01:05:09.611 --> 01:05:11.398 
  <font color="#ffffff">und nicht von 2 %</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie in allen NATO-Staaten.</font>

  1211
  01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:15.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie erreichen nicht einmal 1 %</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bis 2030 voraussichtlich,</font>

  1212
  01:05:15.771 --> 01:05:18.598 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn wir keinen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">politischen Konsens finden.</font>

  1213
  01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:21.328 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sprechen vom Anteil Armeebudget</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">am Bruttoinlandsprodukt.</font>

  1214
  01:05:21.970 --> 01:05:22.708 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur kurz.</font>

  1215
  01:05:23.350 --> 01:05:26.594 
  <font color="#00ffff">Nur kurz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und dann geht es doch länger.</font>

  1216
  01:05:27.238 --> 01:05:30.080 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieser grüne Abgeordnete</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aus Österreich hat mir gesagt:</font>

  1217
  01:05:30.721 --> 01:05:32.698 
  <font color="#ffffff">Selbst für einen neutralen Staat</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie Österreich</font>

  1218
  01:05:33.339 --> 01:05:36.279 
  <font color="#ffffff">müsse es selbstverständlich sein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man 2 % einsetzt.</font>

  1219
  01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:38.368 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe ihm gesagt:</font>

  1220
  01:05:39.010 --> 01:05:40.498 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Solche Grüne hätten wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz auch gerne."</font>

  1221
  01:05:41.142 --> 01:05:42.499 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Eine kurze Replik</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist mir wichtig.</font>

  1222
  01:05:43.140 --> 01:05:44.079 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bin tatsächlich der Meinung,</font>

  1223
  01:05:44.720 --> 01:05:46.141 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir mehr für die europäische</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicherheit tun müssen.</font>

  1224
  01:05:46.783 --> 01:05:48.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber wir haben das Privileg,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">es ist kein Verdienst,</font>

  1225
  01:05:49.129 --> 01:05:51.068 
  <font color="#ffffff">der geographischen Lage.</font>

  1226
  01:05:51.709 --> 01:05:54.003 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind mitten in Europa</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">umgeben vom NATO-Gürtel.</font>

  1227
  01:05:54.648 --> 01:05:56.808 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ermöglicht uns -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ich sehe das als Chance -</font>

  1228
  01:05:57.453 --> 01:06:00.221 
  <font color="#ffffff">unseren Beitrag zur europäischen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Sicherheit, zur Solidarität</font>

  1229
  01:06:00.863 --> 01:06:02.978 
  <font color="#ffffff">im nicht-militärischen Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zu leisten.</font>

  1230
  01:06:03.621 --> 01:06:05.708 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur das zu machen, was dringend</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">notwendig ist, können wir,</font>

  1231
  01:06:06.349 --> 01:06:07.828 
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir eine andere Glaubwürdigkeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">haben.</font>

  1232
  01:06:08.471 --> 01:06:09.868 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil wir nicht Teil der NATO sind.</font>

  1233
  01:06:10.509 --> 01:06:12.078 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Chance haben wir nur,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weil wir mitten drin sind.</font>

  1234
  01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:14.718 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht Teil der NATO zu sein,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bedeutet z.B.</font>

  1235
  01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:18.590 
  <font color="#ffffff">im globalen Süden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">glaubwürdig zu sein.</font>

  1236
  01:06:19.231 --> 01:06:22.438 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man mehr in Friedensförderung,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Diplomatie,</font>

  1237
  01:06:23.080 --> 01:06:25.748 
  <font color="#ffffff">in internationale Zusammenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">investiert,</font>

  1238
  01:06:26.389 --> 01:06:29.867 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann leistet man einen Beitrag</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">zur Sicherheit der Schweiz,</font>

  1239
  01:06:30.509 --> 01:06:31.462 
  <font color="#ffffff">Europas und der Welt.</font>

  1240
  01:06:32.104 --> 01:06:34.928 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da ist das Geld besser investiert,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als wenn wir massiv</font>

  1241
  01:06:35.570 --> 01:06:37.828 
  <font color="#ffffff">in die terrestrische Verteidigung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">investieren.</font>

  1242
  01:06:38.469 --> 01:06:42.730 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wo es eine reale Bedrohung gibt -</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Cyber, Desinformation, Luft,</font>

  1243
  01:06:43.371 --> 01:06:44.890 
  <font color="#ffffff">Terrorismus, kritische Infra-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">struktur - da bin ich dafür.</font>

  1244
  01:06:45.532 --> 01:06:47.139 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das kostet aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht so viele Milliarden.</font>

  1245
  01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:51.429 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich springe zu Jürg Grossen.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Nachher Frau Mazzone.</font>

  1246
  01:06:52.070 --> 01:06:53.618 
  <font color="#ffff00">Ich verstehe nicht, wenn du sagst,</font>

  1247
  01:06:54.260 --> 01:06:57.557 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass wir diese Zusammenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">nicht machen wollen.</font>

  1248
  01:06:58.199 --> 01:06:58.908 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Doch.</font>

  1249
  01:06:59.549 --> 01:07:01.038 
  <font color="#ffff00">Beim europäischen Dossier z.B.</font>

  1250
  01:07:01.680 --> 01:07:03.239 
  <font color="#ffff00">wollt ihr eine saubere</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Zusammenarbeit mit Europa.</font>

  1251
  01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:07.080 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir wollen nicht in die EU,</font>

  1252
  01:07:07.721 --> 01:07:09.528 
  <font color="#ffff00">aber wir wollen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">geregelte Beziehungen haben.</font>

  1253
  01:07:10.169 --> 01:07:11.430 
  <font color="#ffff00">Da braucht es gewisse Verträge.</font>

  1254
  01:07:12.072 --> 01:07:14.770 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wenn man das auf diese Thematik</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der NATO überträgt,</font>

  1255
  01:07:15.411 --> 01:07:18.318 
  <font color="#ffff00">dann muss man doch</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">eine Kooperation haben.</font>

  1256
  01:07:18.959 --> 01:07:22.938 
  <font color="#ffff00">Weshalb wollt ihr nicht einmal im</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">Cyberbereich, im Informationsbereich</font>

  1257
  01:07:23.588 --> 01:07:24.858 
  <font color="#ffff00">kooperieren.</font>

  1258
  01:07:25.498 --> 01:07:26.888 
  <font color="#ffff00">Wir brauchen das unbedingt.</font>

  1259
  01:07:27.530 --> 01:07:29.947 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es gibt eine unheilige Allianz,</font>

  1260
  01:07:30.591 --> 01:07:33.054 
  <font color="#ffff00">in der die Zentrumsparteien</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">gegen die Flügel sind.</font>

  1261
  01:07:33.695 --> 01:07:37.988 
  <font color="#ffff00">Die Linken und die Rechten spannen</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">zusammen und lehnen alles ab.</font>

  1262
  01:07:38.629 --> 01:07:40.598 
  <font color="#ffff00">Das stimmt mich extrem bedenklich,</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">das muss ich ganz klar sagen.</font>

  1263
  01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:46.159 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es ist eben auch die Initiative</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">der SVP zur integralen Neutralität.</font>

  1264
  01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:49.580 
  <font color="#ffff00">Es sind Rechtskonservative</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">und Linkskonservative,</font>

  1265
  01:07:50.225 --> 01:07:53.935 
  <font color="#ffff00">die zusammen die Idee haben,</font>

  1266
  01:07:54.577 --> 01:07:59.479 
  <font color="#ffff00">dass man auf Verfassungsebene</font>
  <font color="#ffff00">die Neutralität definiert.</font>

  1267
  01:08:00.120 --> 01:08:01.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Pult) Wir bekämpfen die Initiative.</font>

  1268
  01:08:02.130 --> 01:08:03.968 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eigentlich ist es</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ja die Gruppe Pro-Schweiz,</font>

  1269
  01:08:04.612 --> 01:08:06.777 
  <font color="#00ffff">sekundiert von SVP-Exponenten,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das muss man auch sagen.</font>

  1270
  01:08:07.419 --> 01:08:10.388 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone, ich hänge noch</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">etwas beim österreichischen Grünen.</font>

  1271
  01:08:11.029 --> 01:08:12.468 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wollen Sie dazu noch etwas sagen?</font>

  1272
  01:08:13.109 --> 01:08:15.590 
  <font color="#008000">Sehr gerne, ich kenne sie</font>
  <font color="#008000">und mag sie - manchmal.</font>

  1273
  01:08:16.231 --> 01:08:18.568 
  <font color="#008000">Ich finde es sehr wichtig,</font>

  1274
  01:08:19.211 --> 01:08:22.630 
  <font color="#008000">dass wir uns daran erinnern,</font>
  <font color="#008000">worüber man spricht.</font>

  1275
  01:08:23.270 --> 01:08:29.198 
  <font color="#008000">Diese 1 % des BIP</font>
  <font color="#008000">für die Sicherheit, die Armee.</font>

  1276
  01:08:29.841 --> 01:08:32.917 
  <font color="#008000">Wenn man so zählt wie andere Länder,</font>
  <font color="#008000">dann sind wir schon dran.</font>

  1277
  01:08:33.559 --> 01:08:36.638 
  <font color="#008000">Es hängt davon ab,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wie man die Zahlen anschaut.</font>

  1278
  01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:39.386 
  <font color="#008000">Wir sind schon dran.</font>

  1279
  01:08:40.028 --> 01:08:42.267 
  <font color="#008000">Was heute diskutiert wird, ist</font>
  <font color="#008000">nicht, ob wir die Armee abschaffen.</font>

  1280
  01:08:42.908 --> 01:08:44.978 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist nicht auf dem Tisch.</font>

  1281
  01:08:45.618 --> 01:08:50.798 
  <font color="#008000">Es wird diskutiert, ob es 2 Mrd.,</font>
  <font color="#008000">4 Mrd., 6 Mrd., 10 Mrd. mehr sind.</font>

  1282
  01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:52.828 
  <font color="#008000">Diese Fragen liegen auf dem Tisch.</font>

  1283
  01:08:53.470 --> 01:08:58.607 
  <font color="#008000">Wir haben alle einen Haushalt</font>
  <font color="#008000">und wissen wie es funktioniert.</font>

  1284
  01:08:59.247 --> 01:09:03.283 
  <font color="#008000">Wenn wir irgendwo ausgeben,</font>
  <font color="#008000">gibt es anderswo weniger Geld.</font>

  1285
  01:09:03.926 --> 01:09:08.207 
  <font color="#008000">Oder dann gibt es soziale Abgaben,</font>
  <font color="#008000">wie z.B. die Mehrwertsteuererhöhung.</font>

  1286
  01:09:08.853 --> 01:09:10.497 
  <font color="#008000">Das ist die letzte Idee,</font>

  1287
  01:09:11.140 --> 01:09:14.874 
  <font color="#008000">weil man dieses Geld</font>
  <font color="#008000">unbedingt finden will.</font>

  1288
  01:09:15.515 --> 01:09:19.447 
  <font color="#008000">Wir müssen mit der Bevölkerung</font>
  <font color="#008000">darüber diskutieren.</font>

  1289
  01:09:20.089 --> 01:09:23.839 
  <font color="#008000">Ist es die finanzielle Priorität,</font>

  1290
  01:09:24.481 --> 01:09:26.620 
  <font color="#008000">die wir setzen wollen</font>
  <font color="#008000">für unsere Sicherheit?</font>

  1291
  01:09:27.261 --> 01:09:29.858 
  <font color="#008000">Ich bin auch</font>
  <font color="#008000">für die Sicherheit der Schweiz.</font>

  1292
  01:09:30.499 --> 01:09:33.977 
  <font color="#008000">Aber das Konzept der Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#008000">geht viel weiter.</font>

  1293
  01:09:34.618 --> 01:09:38.147 
  <font color="#008000">Die internationale Zusammenarbeit</font>
  <font color="#008000">zählt auch zur Sicherheit.</font>

  1294
  01:09:38.791 --> 01:09:40.287 
  <font color="#008000">Und zur Stabilität in der Welt.</font>

  1295
  01:09:40.928 --> 01:09:43.268 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir haben die Sendung begonnen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit der Diskussion darüber,</font>

  1296
  01:09:43.908 --> 01:09:46.870 
  <font color="#00ffff">was vom Bürgenstock-Gipfel</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">erwartet wird.</font>

  1297
  01:09:47.511 --> 01:09:49.997 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sind dann</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">zur Neutralitätsdebatte gegangen.</font>

  1298
  01:09:50.639 --> 01:09:54.547 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sind unterdessen bei einer</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sicherheitspolitischen Debatte.</font>

  1299
  01:09:55.191 --> 01:09:57.797 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich möchte den Bogen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wieder zurückspannen zu dem,</font>

  1300
  01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:02.118 
  <font color="#00ffff">was die Schweiz unter</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">ihrer Neutralität versteht,</font>

  1301
  01:10:02.758 --> 01:10:03.924 
  <font color="#00ffff">v.a. unter der Neutralitätspolitik.</font>

  1302
  01:10:04.565 --> 01:10:08.147 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marianne Binder, wie sehr</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">wollen Sie noch rumschrauben</font>

  1303
  01:10:08.788 --> 01:10:10.297 
  <font color="#00ffff">an diesem Begriff?</font>

  1304
  01:10:10.940 --> 01:10:16.008 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es versteht jeder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas anderes unter Neutralität,</font>

  1305
  01:10:16.649 --> 01:10:17.818 
  <font color="#ffffff">das ist ja auch spannend.</font>

  1306
  01:10:18.459 --> 01:10:20.848 
  <font color="#00ffff">Verstehen Sie, was der Bundesrat</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">darunter versteht?</font>

  1307
  01:10:21.490 --> 01:10:25.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte v.a. sagen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was ich selber darunter verstehe.</font>

  1308
  01:10:26.089 --> 01:10:28.787 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das ist auch eine Antwort.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- Das kann common sense sein.</font>

  1309
  01:10:29.428 --> 01:10:33.939 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neutralität heisst nicht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Recht und Unrecht gleichzusetzen.</font>

  1310
  01:10:34.588 --> 01:10:36.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie ich schon gesagt habe.</font>

  1311
  01:10:36.689 --> 01:10:39.488 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Konzept der immerwährenden,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bewaffneten Neutralität,</font>

  1312
  01:10:40.129 --> 01:10:42.977 
  <font color="#ffffff">das hier propagiert wird,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">klingt gut.</font>

  1313
  01:10:43.618 --> 01:10:47.399 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es heisst ja,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir greifen niemanden an,</font>

  1314
  01:10:48.040 --> 01:10:50.717 
  <font color="#ffffff">verteidigen uns aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei einem Angriff.</font>

  1315
  01:10:51.359 --> 01:10:53.358 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn dieses Konzept</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weltweit angewendet würde,</font>

  1316
  01:10:53.999 --> 01:10:56.757 
  <font color="#ffffff">hätte das Ausmasse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie das Gandhi wollte.</font>

  1317
  01:10:57.399 --> 01:11:00.047 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dann gäbe es keine Kriege mehr.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber die Realität ist anders.</font>

  1318
  01:11:00.688 --> 01:11:04.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir gehören zum westlichen Bündnis,</font>

  1319
  01:11:05.089 --> 01:11:10.588 
  <font color="#ffffff">zu den westlichen Demokratien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Rechtsstaaten.</font>

  1320
  01:11:11.229 --> 01:11:13.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein riesiges Glück.</font>

  1321
  01:11:14.499 --> 01:11:18.889 
  <font color="#ffffff">Seit 80 Jahren leben wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hier im Westen, in Europa,</font>

  1322
  01:11:19.530 --> 01:11:23.017 
  <font color="#ffffff">in einer nie gesehenen Freiheit,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in nie gesehenen Demokratien,</font>

  1323
  01:11:23.659 --> 01:11:28.697 
  <font color="#ffffff">die so noch nie vorgekommen sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Weltgeschichte.</font>

  1324
  01:11:29.341 --> 01:11:32.758 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vielleicht ein letzter Exkurs</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die Geschichte.</font>

  1325
  01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:36.347 
  <font color="#ffffff">Der Krieg wurde in Europa</font>

  1326
  01:11:36.988 --> 01:11:39.497 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht alleine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durch die Neutralität gewonnen.</font>

  1327
  01:11:40.138 --> 01:11:44.568 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sondern weil die Richtigen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Alliierten,</font>

  1328
  01:11:45.209 --> 01:11:46.577 
  <font color="#ffffff">in Europa den Krieg gewannen.</font>

  1329
  01:11:47.224 --> 01:11:49.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das waren die Russen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Amerikaner, die Franzosen.</font>

  1330
  01:11:50.499 --> 01:11:54.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Russen haben am Schluss</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in den Krieg eingegriffen.</font>

  1331
  01:11:54.748 --> 01:11:58.979 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber sie hatten am Anfang einen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Nicht-Angriffs-Pakt mit Hitler.</font>

  1332
  01:11:59.616 --> 01:12:04.158 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir verdanken den Alliierten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ebendiesen Frieden</font>

  1333
  01:12:04.799 --> 01:12:08.048 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch in der Schweiz.</font>

  1334
  01:12:08.689 --> 01:12:11.167 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir hatten noch das doppelte Glück,</font>

  1335
  01:12:11.808 --> 01:12:14.135 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir nicht unter die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sowjetische Diktatur gerieten.</font>

  1336
  01:12:14.776 --> 01:12:18.617 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und genau deshalb brauchen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Zusammenarbeit in Europa,</font>

  1337
  01:12:19.259 --> 01:12:21.209 
  <font color="#ffffff">die uns letztlich auch schützt.</font>

  1338
  01:12:21.851 --> 01:12:23.558 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Aber wir müssen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">unabhängig und neutral bleiben.</font>

  1339
  01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:25.908 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich höre,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir niemanden angreifen,</font>

  1340
  01:12:26.549 --> 01:12:29.964 
  <font color="#ffffff">dann sehe ich den Grössenwahn,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den einzelne in diesem Land haben.</font>

  1341
  01:12:30.605 --> 01:12:33.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen uns bewusst sein</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Grösse unseres Landes,</font>

  1342
  01:12:33.749 --> 01:12:35.577 
  <font color="#ffffff">über die Grösse unserer Armee.</font>

  1343
  01:12:36.219 --> 01:12:38.277 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das zeigt,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie wichtig die Neutralität ist.</font>

  1344
  01:12:38.919 --> 01:12:41.598 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sind ein kleines Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einer kleinen Armee,</font>

  1345
  01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:43.748 
  <font color="#ffffff">aktuell leider</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">schlecht ausgestattet.</font>

  1346
  01:12:44.389 --> 01:12:46.707 
  <font color="#ffffff">Weil wir die Gelder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in den vergangenen Jahren</font>

  1347
  01:12:47.348 --> 01:12:48.797 
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht gesprochen haben.</font>

  1348
  01:12:49.438 --> 01:12:50.767 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dass die Demokratien</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">weltweit zunehmen,</font>

  1349
  01:12:51.408 --> 01:12:53.032 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist leider nicht der Fall.</font>

  1350
  01:12:53.671 --> 01:12:54.867 
  <font color="#ffffff">Leider geht es weltweit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in die andere Richtung.</font>

  1351
  01:12:55.508 --> 01:12:56.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Genau.</font>

  1352
  01:12:56.840 --> 01:12:58.457 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist auch kein Erfolgsrezept</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der letzten Jahrzehnte.</font>

  1353
  01:12:59.098 --> 01:13:00.837 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist doppelt wichtig,</font>

  1354
  01:13:01.479 --> 01:13:03.399 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir diese Neutralität zum</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Schutz unserer eigenen Bevölkerung</font>

  1355
  01:13:04.040 --> 01:13:06.117 
  <font color="#ffffff">hochhalten können,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch in den nächsten Jahren.</font>

  1356
  01:13:06.759 --> 01:13:09.517 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir können keine Weltpolizei spielen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als kleine Schweiz.</font>

  1357
  01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:11.608 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dessen müssen wir uns bewusst sein.</font>

  1358
  01:13:12.249 --> 01:13:13.847 
  <font color="#ffffff">Von wegen andere Länder angreifen -</font>

  1359
  01:13:14.493 --> 01:13:16.124 
  <font color="#ffffff">dieses Szenario</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">können wir vergessen.</font>

  1360
  01:13:16.766 --> 01:13:18.563 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir können froh sein, dass wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Bürgenstock bewachen können.</font>

  1361
  01:13:19.205 --> 01:13:22.677 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wer hat welchen Grössenwahn?</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Das möchte ich noch klären.</font>

  1362
  01:13:23.318 --> 01:13:24.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Einfach,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn man das im Wording hat.</font>

  1363
  01:13:25.369 --> 01:13:26.807 
  <font color="#ffffff">"Wir wollen nicht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">andere Länder angreifen."</font>

  1364
  01:13:27.449 --> 01:13:31.707 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Das ist das Konzept.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das habe ich auch nicht gesagt.</font>

  1365
  01:13:32.351 --> 01:13:34.437 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Das können wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">von der Schweiz aus vergessen.</font>

  1366
  01:13:35.078 --> 01:13:36.516 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Das habe ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auch nicht gesagt.</font>

  1367
  01:13:37.158 --> 01:13:39.117 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das möchte ich klarstellen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Konzept der Neutralität.</font>

  1368
  01:13:39.758 --> 01:13:40.869 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir greifen niemanden an,</font>

  1369
  01:13:41.510 --> 01:13:42.867 
  <font color="#ffffff">verteidigen uns aber</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bei einem Angriff.</font>

  1370
  01:13:43.508 --> 01:13:44.317 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Konzept.</font>

  1371
  01:13:44.958 --> 01:13:47.297 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dieses Konzept weltweit angewendet,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wäre das grösste Friedensprojekt.</font>

  1372
  01:13:47.939 --> 01:13:51.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">Nur ist die Frage, wann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wir eigentlich angegriffen sind.</font>

  1373
  01:13:52.450 --> 01:13:55.727 
  <font color="#ffffff">Im Verbund mit den westlichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rechtsstaaten und Demokratien</font>

  1374
  01:13:56.368 --> 01:13:58.846 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist momentan eine</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gefährliche Eskalation im Gange.</font>

  1375
  01:13:59.488 --> 01:14:01.404 
  <font color="#ffffff">Gerade deshalb muss die Schweiz</font>

  1376
  01:14:02.045 --> 01:14:04.130 
  <font color="#ffffff">in Kooperation</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit den anderen Rechtsstaaten</font>

  1377
  01:14:04.772 --> 01:14:06.597 
  <font color="#ffffff">auch sich selber schützen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">- (Dettling) Nein.</font>

  1378
  01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:08.877 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Im Sinne</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der eigenen Sicherheit.</font>

  1379
  01:14:09.523 --> 01:14:11.777 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir können</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">uns nicht selber verteidigen.</font>

  1380
  01:14:12.419 --> 01:14:13.857 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Dettling) Wir brauchen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">eine gut ausgerüstete Armee.</font>

  1381
  01:14:14.498 --> 01:14:14.937 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist das Erfolgsrezept.</font>

  1382
  01:14:15.578 --> 01:14:16.377 
  <font color="#ffffff">(Binder) Die haben wir ja nicht.</font>

  1383
  01:14:18.300 --> 01:14:21.097 
  <font color="#ffffff">Neutralität soll uns dienen, des-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">halb brauchen wir die Neutralität.</font>

  1384
  01:14:21.738 --> 01:14:23.597 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das hält uns nicht davon ab,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Optionen zu schaffen,</font>

  1385
  01:14:24.238 --> 01:14:25.888 
  <font color="#ffffff">so, wie es General Guisan</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">gemacht hat.</font>

  1386
  01:14:26.529 --> 01:14:27.927 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das bedeutet aber auch,</font>

  1387
  01:14:28.568 --> 01:14:30.156 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir die bewaffnete Neutralität</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">durchhalten müssen,</font>

  1388
  01:14:30.798 --> 01:14:33.107 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir in diesem Bereich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">investieren müssen.</font>

  1389
  01:14:33.748 --> 01:14:37.158 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und es fehlt auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an politischen Konzepten:</font>

  1390
  01:14:37.799 --> 01:14:40.024 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was wollen wir? Wann wollen wir es?</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Wie sieht es genau aus?</font>

  1391
  01:14:40.666 --> 01:14:44.327 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Verteidigung ist</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht nur eine Frage der Armee,</font>

  1392
  01:14:44.969 --> 01:14:46.687 
  <font color="#ffffff">da müssen viele Institutionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und Behörden zusammenspielen.</font>

  1393
  01:14:47.328 --> 01:14:51.208 
  <font color="#ffffff">Vor 30 Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">hatte man den Eindruck,</font>

  1394
  01:14:51.849 --> 01:14:53.787 
  <font color="#ffffff">es sei der ewige Frieden</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Europa ausgebrochen.</font>

  1395
  01:14:54.428 --> 01:14:58.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir sehen, dass das leider</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht der Fall war.</font>

  1396
  01:14:58.839 --> 01:15:02.189 
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das macht es notwendig,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass man Gipfel macht mit dem Ziel,</font>

  1397
  01:15:02.838 --> 01:15:04.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frieden zu schaffen.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Und das macht die Schweiz.</font>

  1398
  01:15:05.208 --> 01:15:07.689 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist der Beitrag, den wir,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">bescheiden, wie wir sind, leisten.</font>

  1399
  01:15:08.330 --> 01:15:10.947 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ein gutes Fast-Schlusswort.</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Eine Nachfrage:</font>

  1400
  01:15:11.591 --> 01:15:14.287 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie sagen,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">es fehle an guten Konzepten.</font>

  1401
  01:15:14.928 --> 01:15:17.237 
  <font color="#00ffff">Meinen Sie auch die Flughöhe</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">des Bundesrates?</font>

  1402
  01:15:17.878 --> 01:15:23.046 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ja. Es ist so, wir haben auf Armee-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ebene klare Vorstellungen davon,</font>

  1403
  01:15:23.688 --> 01:15:25.234 
  <font color="#ffffff">was es wann braucht</font>

  1404
  01:15:25.876 --> 01:15:27.587 
  <font color="#ffffff">und wann die Investitionen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">getätigt werden müssen.</font>

  1405
  01:15:28.228 --> 01:15:35.177 
  <font color="#ffffff">Diese Überlegungen waren aber noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nie Bestandteil des Bundesrates.</font>

  1406
  01:15:35.819 --> 01:15:39.236 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist schon notwendig neben</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">den Mitteln, die notwendig sind,</font>

  1407
  01:15:39.878 --> 01:15:41.836 
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Arbeit dringend anzugehen.</font>

  1408
  01:15:42.478 --> 01:15:44.126 
  <font color="#ffffff">Was wir tun,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sollte nicht konzeptlos sein.</font>

  1409
  01:15:44.768 --> 01:15:49.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">Fakt ist: Man hat u.a. auch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die internationale Zusammenarbeit</font>

  1410
  01:15:49.928 --> 01:15:51.777 
  <font color="#ffffff">in den letzten Jahren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">finanziell massiv hochgefahren</font>

  1411
  01:15:52.417 --> 01:15:55.337 
  <font color="#ffffff">zulasten der Armee.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jetzt sind die Situationen anders.</font>

  1412
  01:15:55.978 --> 01:15:58.466 
  <font color="#ffffff">Man muss nicht über Mehreinnahmen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sprechen, sondern kann auch sagen:</font>

  1413
  01:15:59.110 --> 01:16:02.036 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir setzen die Prioritäten jetzt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anders, es herrscht Krieg in Europa.</font>

  1414
  01:16:02.678 --> 01:16:06.207 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb nimmt man am einen Ort</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">etwas weg zugunsten des anderen.</font>

  1415
  01:16:06.848 --> 01:16:09.168 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen nicht immer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einfach alles fortschreiben</font>

  1416
  01:16:09.809 --> 01:16:13.756 
  <font color="#ffffff">und beim Mittelstand</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Steuern reinholen.</font>

  1417
  01:16:14.398 --> 01:16:18.296 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die grosse Chance der Schweiz, weil</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie das Privileg der Geografie hat,</font>

  1418
  01:16:18.938 --> 01:16:20.396 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist es,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass sie sich mehr engagieren kann,</font>

  1419
  01:16:21.038 --> 01:16:22.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">in den nicht-militärischen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Bereichen,</font>

  1420
  01:16:23.088 --> 01:16:24.093 
  <font color="#ffffff">um mehr Sicherheit zu schaffen.</font>

  1421
  01:16:24.734 --> 01:16:26.117 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb braucht es Kooperationen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mit allen.</font>

  1422
  01:16:26.758 --> 01:16:28.197 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber das Falscheste,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was wir machen können, ist,</font>

  1423
  01:16:28.838 --> 01:16:31.476 
  <font color="#ffffff">unser entwicklungspolitisches,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diplomatisches Engagement</font>

  1424
  01:16:32.118 --> 01:16:35.416 
  <font color="#ffffff">runterzufahren,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">um Armeegüter zu kaufen,</font>

  1425
  01:16:36.058 --> 01:16:38.757 
  <font color="#ffffff">die höchstwahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nie benutzt werden.</font>

  1426
  01:16:39.398 --> 01:16:42.067 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen Bedrohungen angehen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber auch dafür sorgen,</font>

  1427
  01:16:42.708 --> 01:16:44.287 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es weniger Konflikte</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">auf der Welt gibt.</font>

  1428
  01:16:44.927 --> 01:16:50.519 
  <font color="#ffffff">Als privilegierte Schweiz mitten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in Europa in einem NATO-Gürtel</font>

  1429
  01:16:51.159 --> 01:16:53.358 
  <font color="#ffffff">ist das Falscheste,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">was wir machen können,</font>

  1430
  01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:55.466 
  <font color="#ffffff">uns auf der Welt zurückzuziehen.</font>

  1431
  01:16:56.108 --> 01:16:57.536 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn auf uns hört man noch</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">im globalen Süden,</font>

  1432
  01:16:58.178 --> 01:16:59.836 
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr als auf die,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Teil der NATO sind.</font>

  1433
  01:17:00.478 --> 01:17:02.131 
  <font color="#ffffff">Auf uns hört man,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">diese Stimme braucht es.</font>

  1434
  01:17:02.773 --> 01:17:05.497 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb sollten wir uns global</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">mehr engagieren,</font>

  1435
  01:17:06.139 --> 01:17:08.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">politisch, humanitär,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Entwicklungszusammenarbeit.</font>

  1436
  01:17:08.933 --> 01:17:11.306 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir sind am Ende dieser "Arena",</font>

  1437
  01:17:11.947 --> 01:17:14.082 
  <font color="#00ffff">die ich normalerweise</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit einem persönlichen Bild</font>

  1438
  01:17:14.723 --> 01:17:16.748 
  <font color="#00ffff">aus der Woche beende. Heute</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">möchte ich das ein wenig aufbrechen.</font>

  1439
  01:17:17.389 --> 01:17:23.269 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wir zeigen bewegte Bilder von heute,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">vom Frauenstreiktag.</font>

  1440
  01:17:23.911 --> 01:17:27.978 
  <font color="#00ffff">Der 14. Juni geht zurück auf 1991,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als sich Hunderttausende Frauen</font>

  1441
  01:17:28.619 --> 01:17:30.487 
  <font color="#00ffff">an Streik- und Protestaktionen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">beteiligten.</font>

  1442
  01:17:31.129 --> 01:17:37.117 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das sind Bilder von heute Nachmittag</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aus Bern.</font>

  1443
  01:17:39.889 --> 01:17:42.616 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich bin wieder bei Lisa Mazzone</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">und frage sie:</font>

  1444
  01:17:43.257 --> 01:17:45.236 
  <font color="#00ffff">Wie wichtig ist Ihnen persönlich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">dieser Tag heute?</font>

  1445
  01:17:46.189 --> 01:17:51.647 
  <font color="#008000">Sehr wichtig, man gibt den</font>
  <font color="#008000">feministischen Anliegen mehr Platz.</font>

  1446
  01:17:52.288 --> 01:17:54.417 
  <font color="#008000">Leider nicht in dieser Sendung.</font>
  <font color="#008000">Aber es ist sehr wichtig.</font>

  1447
  01:17:55.058 --> 01:17:57.817 
  <font color="#008000">In der Schweiz werden Frauen</font>
  <font color="#008000">immer noch weniger bezahlt</font>

  1448
  01:17:58.464 --> 01:18:01.006 
  <font color="#008000">und erhalten weniger Rente.</font>

  1449
  01:18:01.647 --> 01:18:05.226 
  <font color="#008000">Und wenn man ein Kind bekommt,</font>

  1450
  01:18:05.868 --> 01:18:08.576 
  <font color="#008000">hat man in der Schweiz als Frau</font>
  <font color="#008000">immer noch andere Möglichkeiten</font>

  1451
  01:18:09.218 --> 01:18:11.477 
  <font color="#008000">als als Mann</font>
  <font color="#008000">und das muss sich ändern.</font>

  1452
  01:18:12.117 --> 01:18:14.687 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marianne Binder, es gilt ja</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">jetzt als feministischer Streik.</font>

  1453
  01:18:15.328 --> 01:18:16.826 
  <font color="#00ffff">Spricht Sie das an?</font>

  1454
  01:18:17.467 --> 01:18:21.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich achte diesen Tag sehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und ich bin dankbar für alles,</font>

  1455
  01:18:21.757 --> 01:18:26.762 
  <font color="#ffffff">was in den letzten Jahrzehnten,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Jahrhunderten geleistet wurde,</font>

  1456
  01:18:27.403 --> 01:18:33.587 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit diese Gleichstellung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der Geschlechter Erfolge hat.</font>

  1457
  01:18:34.228 --> 01:18:35.996 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben sicher</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">noch nicht alles erreicht.</font>

  1458
  01:18:36.637 --> 01:18:38.526 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aber an diesem Tag möchte ich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">doch noch daran erinnern,</font>

  1459
  01:18:39.167 --> 01:18:43.026 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es nicht nur die Gleichstellung</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in unseren westlichen Ländern gibt.</font>

  1460
  01:18:43.668 --> 01:18:47.357 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denn so gleichgestellt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie in den westlichen Ländern</font>

  1461
  01:18:47.998 --> 01:18:50.219 
  <font color="#ffffff">war man wahrscheinlich</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Geschichte noch nie.</font>

  1462
  01:18:50.858 --> 01:18:55.886 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt auch Parallelgesellschaften,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Frauenrechte in anderen Ländern,</font>

  1463
  01:18:56.527 --> 01:18:57.936 
  <font color="#ffffff">an die wir auch denken müssen.</font>

  1464
  01:18:58.586 --> 01:19:03.597 
  <font color="#ffffff">Denken wir z.B. an den Iran oder</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">daran, was am 7. Oktober passierte.</font>

  1465
  01:19:04.238 --> 01:19:07.447 
  <font color="#ffffff">Da müssen wir</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">als Frauenbewegung stark sein</font>

  1466
  01:19:08.088 --> 01:19:12.326 
  <font color="#ffffff">und uns global und integral</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">einsetzen für die Frauenrechte.</font>

  1467
  01:19:12.971 --> 01:19:16.356 
  <font color="#00ffff">Thierry Burkart, wo stehen wir bei</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">der Gleichstellung in der Schweiz?</font>

  1468
  01:19:17.007 --> 01:19:19.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn ich diese Bilder sehe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">freue ich mich.</font>

  1469
  01:19:19.758 --> 01:19:22.039 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich freue mich, dass in unserem Land</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">demonstriert werden darf,</font>

  1470
  01:19:22.678 --> 01:19:26.583 
  <font color="#ffffff">egal, ob es die Politik gut findet.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Man kann demonstrieren.</font>

  1471
  01:19:27.224 --> 01:19:29.666 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das müssen wir hochhalten</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und alles tun,</font>

  1472
  01:19:30.307 --> 01:19:32.684 
  <font color="#ffffff">damit unsere direkte Demokratie</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">geschützt wird.</font>

  1473
  01:19:33.325 --> 01:19:36.708 
  <font color="#ffffff">Genau deshalb müssen wir das tun,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">worüber wir vorher gesprochen haben.</font>

  1474
  01:19:37.349 --> 01:19:44.199 
  <font color="#ffffff">Sehr verständlich gibt es nach</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">wie vor leider Benachteiligungen</font>

  1475
  01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.406 
  <font color="#ffffff">gegenüber Frauen.</font>

  1476
  01:19:48.048 --> 01:19:49.816 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die sind nicht strukturell,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">aber in Einzelfällen gibt es sie.</font>

  1477
  01:19:50.457 --> 01:19:52.636 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir müssen aufpassen,</font>

  1478
  01:19:53.278 --> 01:19:56.318 
  <font color="#ffffff">dass wir auch in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">keine neuen Parallelstrukturen</font>

  1479
  01:19:56.959 --> 01:19:59.117 
  <font color="#ffffff">entstehen lassen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die sehr frauenfeindlich sind.</font>

  1480
  01:19:59.758 --> 01:20:01.856 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben eine grosse Aufgabe,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">insbesondere, wenn wir uns</font>

  1481
  01:20:02.497 --> 01:20:06.746 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Nachbarländer anschauen,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">z.B. Frankreich oder Deutschland.</font>

  1482
  01:20:07.387 --> 01:20:13.006 
  <font color="#ffffff">Dort gibt es Gebiete, wo die Frauen-</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rechte mit Füssen getreten werden.</font>

  1483
  01:20:13.648 --> 01:20:14.756 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das dürfen wir hier nicht zulassen.</font>

  1484
  01:20:15.397 --> 01:20:17.987 
  <font color="#00ffff">Keine strukturelle Benachteiligung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von Frauen in diesem Land -</font>

  1485
  01:20:18.628 --> 01:20:20.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jon Pult, teilen Sie diese Meinung?</font>

  1486
  01:20:21.008 --> 01:20:23.459 
  <font color="#ffffff">Leider nicht.</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Lisa Mazzone hat es richtig gesagt.</font>

  1487
  01:20:24.100 --> 01:20:26.966 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Frauen verdienen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">immer noch viel weniger,</font>

  1488
  01:20:27.607 --> 01:20:29.602 
  <font color="#ffffff">haben viel schlechtere</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Rentensituationen,</font>

  1489
  01:20:30.243 --> 01:20:32.286 
  <font color="#ffffff">übernehmen den viel grösseren Teil</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">der nicht bezahlten Pflegearbeit.</font>

  1490
  01:20:32.928 --> 01:20:36.216 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die wohl traurigste Zahl ist, dass</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">jede fünfte Frau in diesem Land</font>

  1491
  01:20:36.857 --> 01:20:40.795 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit Gewalt konfrontiert wird, die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">praktisch immer von Männern ausgeht.</font>

  1492
  01:20:41.437 --> 01:20:44.666 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich möchte an einen guten Entscheid</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">des Parlaments erinnern,</font>

  1493
  01:20:45.308 --> 01:20:47.166 
  <font color="#ffffff">der heute mit grossem Mehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in beiden Kammern gefällt wurde:</font>

  1494
  01:20:47.808 --> 01:20:50.206 
  <font color="#ffffff">Frauen ohne Schweizer Bürgerrecht,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die hier leben,</font>

  1495
  01:20:50.848 --> 01:20:53.308 
  <font color="#ffffff">sind nicht mehr</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in ihrer Ehe gefangen,</font>

  1496
  01:20:53.950 --> 01:20:56.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">wenn der Ehemann z.B. gewalttätig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">ist,</font>

  1497
  01:20:56.727 --> 01:20:59.446 
  <font color="#ffffff">da ihr Aufenthaltsrecht</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">an die Ehe gebunden ist.</font>

  1498
  01:21:00.087 --> 01:21:03.156 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn der Mann</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sie schlägt oder misshandelt,</font>

  1499
  01:21:03.797 --> 01:21:06.858 
  <font color="#ffffff">können sie das melden und verlieren</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht ihr Aufenthaltsrecht.</font>

  1500
  01:21:07.499 --> 01:21:08.836 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist ein Fortschritt für Frauen,</font>

  1501
  01:21:09.478 --> 01:21:10.965 
  <font color="#ffffff">die bisher in einer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dramatischen Situation waren.</font>

  1502
  01:21:11.607 --> 01:21:15.407 
  <font color="#ffffff">Solche kleinen Fortschritte an einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">solchen Tag, können uns alle freuen.</font>

  1503
  01:21:16.048 --> 01:21:20.496 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jürg Grossen, wie stark erfreuen Sie</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">sich an den Anliegen</font>

  1504
  01:21:21.137 --> 01:21:22.681 
  <font color="#00ffff">dieses Frauenstreiktages?</font>

  1505
  01:21:23.318 --> 01:21:26.086 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Grundanliegen teile ich.</font>

  1506
  01:21:26.728 --> 01:21:28.116 
  <font color="#ffffff">Die Schweiz hatte traditionell</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">immer Mühe damit,</font>

  1507
  01:21:28.758 --> 01:21:30.806 
  <font color="#ffffff">die Anliegen der Frauen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">rasch umzusetzen.</font>

  1508
  01:21:31.448 --> 01:21:33.706 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es gibt noch Nachholbedarf,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">das zeigen alle Zahlen.</font>

  1509
  01:21:34.347 --> 01:21:36.776 
  <font color="#ffffff">Woran ich weniger Freude habe, ist,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass es die Gewerkschaften sind,</font>

  1510
  01:21:37.417 --> 01:21:39.986 
  <font color="#ffffff">die diesen Streik gekapert haben</font>

  1511
  01:21:40.628 --> 01:21:44.958 
  <font color="#ffffff">und vom Renten-Beschiss für die</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">BVG-Abstimmung im Herbst sprechen,</font>

  1512
  01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:47.155 
  <font color="#ffffff">was überhaupt nicht stimmt.</font>

  1513
  01:21:47.797 --> 01:21:50.076 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn man das objektiv betrachtet,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">sind nämlich viele Frauen</font>

  1514
  01:21:50.717 --> 01:21:54.576 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit dieser BVG-Reform bessergestellt</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und haben endlich eine Rente.</font>

  1515
  01:21:55.218 --> 01:21:57.956 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das ist etwas Wichtiges.</font>

  1516
  01:21:58.597 --> 01:22:02.237 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich bedaure es, dass es von diesen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gewerkschaften gekapert wird</font>

  1517
  01:22:02.879 --> 01:22:07.634 
  <font color="#ffffff">mit einem</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">nicht objektiven Einschlag.</font>

  1518
  01:22:08.281 --> 01:22:10.896 
  <font color="#00ffff">Marcel Dettling, vielleicht irre ich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mich, aber ich würde spontan sagen:</font>

  1519
  01:22:11.537 --> 01:22:13.596 
  <font color="#00ffff">Feminismus ist nicht so Ihr Ding.</font>

  1520
  01:22:14.238 --> 01:22:16.516 
  <font color="#ffffff">Das muss man differenziert</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">anschauen.</font>

  1521
  01:22:17.156 --> 01:22:19.566 
  <font color="#ffffff">Ich habe schon Verständnis</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Frauen und ihre Probleme.</font>

  1522
  01:22:20.208 --> 01:22:22.895 
  <font color="#ffffff">Aus meinem Umfeld höre ich v.a.,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">dass das Sicherheitsgefühl,</font>

  1523
  01:22:23.537 --> 01:22:25.295 
  <font color="#ffffff">für die Frauen in der Schweiz</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">abnimmt.</font>

  1524
  01:22:25.937 --> 01:22:30.386 
  <font color="#ffffff">Jon Pult hat es richtig</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">angesprochen,</font>

  1525
  01:22:31.027 --> 01:22:33.076 
  <font color="#ffffff">nur die falschen Schlüsse</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">daraus gezogen.</font>

  1526
  01:22:33.717 --> 01:22:36.386 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wir haben v.a. bei der häuslichen</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Gewalt ein importiertes Problem.</font>

  1527
  01:22:37.027 --> 01:22:38.505 
  <font color="#ffffff">Es ist nicht nur ein Männerproblem.</font>

  1528
  01:22:39.147 --> 01:22:41.706 
  <font color="#ffffff">60 % sind nicht Schweizer</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in diesem Bereich.</font>

  1529
  01:22:42.347 --> 01:22:43.776 
  <font color="#ffffff">Deshalb der Appell an die Zuschauer:</font>

  1530
  01:22:44.418 --> 01:22:45.996 
  <font color="#ffffff">Unterschreiben Sie noch heute</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">die Grenzschutz-Initiative</font>

  1531
  01:22:46.638 --> 01:22:48.026 
  <font color="#ffffff">für mehr Sicherheit</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">in der Schweiz ...</font>

  1532
  01:22:48.667 --> 01:22:49.926 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ach, Herr Dettling,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das haben Sie doch nicht nötig,</font>

  1533
  01:22:50.567 --> 01:22:51.666 
  <font color="#00ffff">hier noch einen Aufruf zu machen.</font>

  1534
  01:22:52.307 --> 01:22:53.226 
  <font color="#ffffff">Wenn wir schon hier sind</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">und das nutzen können ...</font>

  1535
  01:22:53.868 --> 01:22:56.126 
  <font color="#00ffff">Ich habe es Ihnen nicht erlaubt,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">aber Sie haben es schon gemacht.</font>

  1536
  01:22:56.766 --> 01:22:59.235 
  <font color="#00ffff">Sie haben für ihre Initiative</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">geworben,</font>

  1537
  01:22:59.877 --> 01:23:03.326 
  <font color="#00ffff">Jürg Grossen hat noch kurz</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">das Fass der BVG-Reform aufgemacht -</font>

  1538
  01:23:03.967 --> 01:23:05.706 
  <font color="#00ffff">mir schwirrt langsam der Kopf.</font>

  1539
  01:23:06.347 --> 01:23:12.611 
  <font color="#00ffff">Aber ich möchte am Schluss noch zu</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone neben Marcel Dettling,</font>

  1540
  01:23:13.253 --> 01:23:15.175 
  <font color="#00ffff">der heute zum ersten Mal</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als SVP-Präsident hier war,</font>

  1541
  01:23:15.817 --> 01:23:18.006 
  <font color="#00ffff">Lisa Mazzone</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">als Präsidentin der Grünen.</font>

  1542
  01:23:18.647 --> 01:23:24.366 
  <font color="#00ffff">Es ist etwas spät, um sich</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">noch an den Aktionen zu beteiligen,</font>

  1543
  01:23:25.007 --> 01:23:27.667 
  <font color="#00ffff">aber was haben Sie noch vor?</font>

  1544
  01:23:28.309 --> 01:23:30.755 
  <font color="#008000">Ich werde schon schauen,</font>
  <font color="#008000">ob noch etwas läuft.</font>

  1545
  01:23:31.397 --> 01:23:35.535 
  <font color="#008000">Ich bedaure es, dass ich nicht</font>
  <font color="#008000">in Genf teilnehmen konnte,</font>

  1546
  01:23:36.177 --> 01:23:37.666 
  <font color="#008000">wie ich es sonst gerne mache.</font>

  1547
  01:23:38.307 --> 01:23:41.606 
  <font color="#008000">Es ist wichtig für mich, dass man</font>
  <font color="#008000">sich trifft und diese Kraft spürt.</font>

  1548
  01:23:42.248 --> 01:23:46.666 
  <font color="#008000">Es gehört allen. Alle,</font>
  <font color="#008000">die kommen wollen, sind willkommen.</font>

  1549
  01:23:47.307 --> 01:23:52.255 
  <font color="#008000">Dieses Gefühl spürt man</font>
  <font color="#008000">an diesen Anlässen immer.</font>

  1550
  01:23:52.896 --> 01:23:54.315 
  <font color="#00ffff">Das war die "Arena"</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mit den Parteispitzen.</font>

  1551
  01:23:54.957 --> 01:23:59.457 
  <font color="#00ffff">Produziert wurde diese Sendung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">von meinem geschätzten Kollegen</font>

  1552
  01:24:00.098 --> 01:24:01.566 
  <font color="#00ffff">Christoph Leisibach.</font>

  1553
  01:24:02.207 --> 01:24:04.126 
  <font color="#00ffff">Eine Zusammenfassung der Sendung</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">finden Sie in der SRF News App</font>

  1554
  01:24:04.768 --> 01:24:05.396 
  <font color="#00ffff">und auf srf.ch.</font>

  1555
  01:24:06.038 --> 01:24:08.056 
  <font color="#00ffff">Den Blick hinter den Kulissen</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">gibt es z.B. bei mir auf Instagram.</font>

  1556
  01:24:08.696 --> 01:24:10.703 
  <font color="#00ffff">Nächste Woche begrüsst Sie hier</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">mein Kollege Mario Grossniklaus.</font>

  1557
  01:24:11.344 --> 01:24:13.145 
  <font color="#00ffff">Bleiben Sie uns treu,</font>
  <font color="#00ffff">bleiben Sie kritisch.</font>

  1558
  01:24:13.788 --> 01:24:14.515 
  <font color="#00ffff">Gute Nacht aus dem Studio 8.</font>

  1559
  01:24:16.658 --> 01:24:21.456 
  <font color="#ffffff">SWISS TXT / Accessibility Services</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Regina Kolb, Vera Weyermann,</font>
  <font color="#ffffff">Myriam Bösch, Lia Budowski</font>

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